This week in the Oathbringer reread, we look at foolish oaths, broken oaths, and the necessity of oaths to the fabric of society.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. The Cosmere implications are minimal this week, though we do address one question. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Lyn: Greetings and welcome back to the Oathbringer reread! In this chapter, Dalinar finally marries his life-long love Navani in a ceremony presided over by the Stormfather himself. It’s… ::sniff:: it’s just so beautiful. I always cry at weddings…
Alice: Our first Rosharan wedding—but first, the return of the Everstorm, housekeeping, and a deeply personal revelation.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar Kholin
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: 1174.1.2.1 (Two days after Chapters 2/3)
Dalinar and Navani watch the Everstorm as it sweeps by below, and Dalinar puts forward his plan to have the Stormfather himself preside over their marriage. They leave for the ceremony, accompanied by friends, family, and witnesses. The Stormfather marries them, and Dalinar and Kadash have a sobering discussion regarding what the ardents see as Dalinar’s blasphemy.
Threshold of the Storm
Herald: Ishar in all four spots.
A: Now I’m cracking up. Ishar is the patron of the Bondsmiths, founder of the Knights Radiant, associated with the Divine Attributes of Pious and Guiding, the role of Priest, and is sometimes known as the Herald of Luck. I think I can see at least four distinct reasons for Ishar in this chapter! Bondsmith, of course, for Dalinar. Priest, both for Kadesh and for the Stormfather who stands in place of a Priest. Pious, both for the multiple representations of Vorinism in the chapter as well as the opposite position of Dalinar, who outright states that “the Almighty was never God.” Guiding, for all the work Dalinar has been doing to guide the inhabitants of Urithiru to some kind of order, even though it should have been Elhokar’s job. And of course, the Herald of Luck, because Dalinar and Navani each consider themselves to be most fortunate to wed the other. Got a couple more slots in that chapter arch?
Icon: Kholin shield, since this is totally Dalinar’s POV.
Title: Oaths
The word is used 15 times in this one chapter. Oof. I looked back at the various chapter titles that were suggested for this chapter. There were ten different suggestions, and nine of them had to do with, you guessed it, oaths. Some were about a specific oath, and some were about oaths in general, but one way or another, they were about oaths. There you have it. The specific line that was quoted in the suggestion of “Oaths” as the title isn’t even in the book any more, but it was in the context of the necessity of oaths to the fabric of society.
Stories & Songs
This thing is not natural, the Stormfather said. It is unknown.
“It didn’t come before, during the earlier Desolations?”
No. It is new.
L: Assuming they’re talking about the Everstorm in general and not just the creepy feeling, this is very interesting, that the Everstorm didn’t come before. What makes it so different this time? Is it because the Heralds weren’t trapped in Damnation?
A: That’s a really good question, and it doesn’t get answered in this book. I’ve assumed that it’s part of Odium’s big bid to escape his binding, which would be at least partially tied to the absence of most of the Heralds and their failure to fully abide by the Oathpact.
Also, the description of watching the storm from above is totally eerie.
The images of twisting windspren along its sides bore the distinctly rounded look of something that had been carved first from weevilwax, then Soulcast into hardwood.
L: This is probably nothing, but… Do you think this was the mirror of a Windrunner? Providing all of this furniture is stuff they found in Urithiru and not stuff they brought with them from the warcamps… It’s cool to consider that they might be surrounded by the possessions of the long-dead Radiants, but… we don’t see much else in terms of furniture or anything. I’d have thought that it all would have rotted away. So it must have come from the warcamps… right?
A: I’m pretty sure it came from the warcamps. I think it’s been empty too long for furnishings to last, though there were apparently still some wooden doors in place. I can’t find proof right off, but there’s been a lot of talk about stuff being brought in from the camps.
Also, I think it’s hilarious that some of his people were determined to make sure he got his fair share of the stuff retrieved from the warcamps, even though he didn’t ask for it. “Here, Boss. Here’s some stuff. No idea if this is what you want or need, but you should have it. Because Stuff.” Turning the outer room (inner? Depends on whether you’re talking about the outside of the building, or the tower entrance to his quarters) into a common room is a good idea, though.
Relationships & Romances
“It’s all right. I can share you with her memory.”
L: This is sweet and self-sacrificing of her, but I’m really lost as to how NO ONE realized what a dick Dalinar was to Evi. Did they just… never go out in public? Did he put up a good act?
A: Well, Evi certainly put up a good act! But I’m content to deal with that later. For now, I want to talk about something else.
Oh, how little they all understood. He turned toward Navani, set his jaw against the pain, and said it.
“I don’t remember her, Navani.”
As far as we know, this is the first time he’s told anyone what’s actually happened to him. You can see in Navani’s initial reaction that she doesn’t quite get it, but she does when he goes on and explains—that pictures are a blur, her name inaudible, and in any memories he has of events where she was there, he can’t remember details. He finally admits that he can’t even remember if he loved her; he assumes he must have, if the pain of losing her drove him to ask this of the Nightwatcher. (We know now, of course, that he’s wrong in thinking he knows what his boon and his curse were, but we’ll get to that later.)
It was such a relief to finally have him tell someone about this, and I’m happy that Navani is the one he told. She can’t help him remember, but this isn’t the kind of thing that should be kept from her.
L: I agree. It’s really endearing, and I love the fact that he’s trusting her with such a deeply personal secret that he can’t share with anyone else. It bodes well for their relationship.
A: It’s also worth pointing out that this is where we get the first hint of the acquisition of Adolin’s Shardplate. We knew from TWoK that it was “inherited from his mother’s side of the family,” and now we learn that Dalinar was at least perceived as marrying her to get it. Oh, the things we’ll learn about this “inheritance” later on!
L: Okay, so let’s move on to the real meat of this chapter—Dalinar and Navani’s relationship.
A: As much as I love these two, I don’t really know what to say about it. To start off with, a quote:
“Your stubborn refusal to get seduced is making me question my feminine wiles.”
While I’m pretty sure she’s never seriously done any such thing, it reminded me so much of Shallan’s line in WoR Chapter 47 (titled “Feminine Wiles” of course), when she decides not to use Illusion to enhance her appearance for a date with Adolin:
She’d have to rely, instead, upon her feminine wiles.
She wished she knew if she had any.
So there’s that chuckle—and that contrast. I doubt Navani has ever wondered.
L: She seems totally confident, showing her freehand like she does. I love this about her.
A: It’s a complex relationship, though, because Dalinar fell in love with Navani somewhere around 35 years ago. Then his brother showed interest, and Dalinar stopped pursuing her, only to spend the next 30 years being bitter and resentful, and feeling guilty for both. For Navani’s part, she seems to have been reasonably content with her choice for a while, but she’s dropped the odd hint that their marriage was not happy in later years.
Now Navani—rightly, IMO—demands to know whether Dalinar is going to keep stringing it along, or if he’s going to find a way to make this happen. His only real hesitation is that he wants to do it “right”—and for a Bondsmith, I think the emphasis on spoken vows make a world of sense—but Vorin tradition and a stubborn senior ardent won’t cooperate. After discussing possibilities like Elhokar, or a priest of some non-Vorin religion (great idea when you’re already being accused of heresy!), Dalinar decides to circumvent them all, and the Stormfather agrees. Navani claims she’d be happy with “a confused dishwasher” to officiate, so she’s good with the super-spren-priest, and who cares what the rest of them think!
Amusingly enough, she actually has all the traditional bridal-wear ready at hand. And somehow, no one has the guts to argue with the Stormfather when he says, “SO BE IT.”
Bruised & Broken
L: I’d like to spend a bit of time here talking about Kadash. Man… knowing what he witnessed at the Rift really breaks my heart. Working so closely with Dalinar probably means that he knew Evi, and to see what Dalinar inadvertently did to her—no wonder the poor guy joined the ardents. Dalinar remembering him retching his guts out on the battlefield is horrifying—for a man so battle-hardened to do that, he must have cared for her. Unlike our proto-Radiants, however, Kadash’s breaking led him into the ardentia. He seems to be genuinely trying to make the world better, and to atone for whatever sins he feels he helped to perpetuate. To follow Dalinar, and then have Dalinar destroy his loyalty at the Rift so completely that he turns to faith for answers… and then Dalinar begins destroying that, too? No wonder he’s so bitter and angry.
A: I don’t want to jump ahead too much, but I’m pretty sure what really did Kadash in was his own involvement. It was his squad that went with Dalinar into the city, and his squad that brought the oil barrels, lit them, and rolled them down into the hiding place turned prison. Dalinar ordered it, but Kadash was right there helping—he knew exactly how and why Evi died. I believe it was the knowledge of his own part that had him retching, and sent him into the ardentia. I can’t really blame him, and it explains some things about his attitude toward Dalinar in this chapter.
L: I still wonder if he knew her personally, or if it was just the knowledge that he’d helped to kill an innocent woman.
Flora & Fauna
[The Everstorm] did not recharge spheres, even if you left them out during the whole Everstorm.
L: Hmmm. I wonder if there are spheres that can hold Voidlight….
A: Do we ever see Voidlight-charged spheres? I don’t recall any.
L: Not so far as I know, but we all know how my memory is, so… The closest I can think of is the “dark” spheres we’ve discussed a few times now, but we seem to be pretty settled on those containing Unmade.
Places & Peoples
“Let the ardents hie to Damnation, with ribbons around their ankles.”
L: Okay, first of all I have to say how much I appreciate the use of the word hie. It is so rare to see and it’s used perfectly here. The real reason I quoted it, though, is the “ribbons around the ankles” bit. Is this something we have seen? A cultural oddity of the Alethi?
A: This is one of my favorite lines! What an image. There’s nothing to indicate whether the ribbons are something one actually sees, or just a figure of speech. I tend to assume the latter, for no good reason.
The balcony ground its inexorable way towards the top of the tower. Only a handful of the dozens of lifts worked; back when Urithiru flourished, they all would have been going at once.
L: Do we ever find out how these these are currently powered? They’re fabrials so I’d assume Stormlight, but why are just these out of all the mechanisms in Urithiru powered via Stormlight? Why not all the other stuff we are suspecting is part of this city?
A: We get a little more detail in Chapter 17 on how they make the lifts work—you put a charged gemstone, not a sphere, in a little slot, and it stops when you take the stone out. There’s a lever you move to make it go up or down. But that still doesn’t explain why this mechanism can be operated with a small charged gemstone, while none of the others can. I seem to be guessing a lot today, but my theory is that most of the other systems are simply too large in scale. I don’t know what else to suggest.
L: They must need more Stormlight than can be provided by a single small gemstone. Maybe the builders of Urithiru wanted to ensure that the lifts would always be able to be used, no matter what. Like emergency lights!
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“Is that a proposal?”
“…Yes?”
“Dalinar Kholin,” she said. “Surely you can do better.”
A: I agree with Navani—for a man who claims that words are so important, that was a mighty casual suggestion!
L: I laughed out loud. But then…
“Better than you, Navani? No, I don’t think that I could.”
L: D’AWWWWW. He turned it around on her and made it all romantic.
A: He cheated.
Weighty Words
“Mere words.”
“Words are the most important things in my life right now.”
L: It’s pretty sobering to think about the fact that Dalinar is placing his responsibility to the world right now over everything else—even his family.
“What about foolish oaths? Made in haste, or in ignorance?”
There are no foolish oaths. All are the mark of men and true spren over beasts and subspren. The mark of intelligence, free will, and choice.
L: This is a nice sentiment and all, but I’m not sure I agree with it. Oaths can be made under duress as well. I suppose a case could be made that even in that case it’s free will, but… I still don’t think I completely agree with Stormdaddy here. Dalinar notes that he doesn’t either, which I like.
A: I think it’s a matter of perspective. From a human viewpoint, we who can so easily change our minds, regret rash promises, or find that we are incapable of keeping what we vowed, there are many sorts of “foolish” oaths which should never be made in the first place. In the eyes of the Stormfather, it seems that even an oath made under duress isn’t a foolish oath; the ability to make an oath proves intelligence and the ability to choose one course over another. As he says, non-sapient creatures are not capable of making oaths. There will be further discussion of this general subject farther into the book, though, as the Stormfather comes to understand humanity better.
“Dalinar Kholin is mine, and I am his.”
YOU HAVE BROKEN OATHS BEFORE.
L: This makes me wonder what oaths she’s broken. I suppose they’re probably little things, but still… it makes me wonder.
A: I was sure I remembered debate about this, but I sure can’t find it! The only suggestion in the preview chapters was from stegasauruss, who said, “I’m also curious what other oaths she’s broken. I feel like that might be significant. Or maybe just like she promised Elhokar to help him with math homework that one time and then forgot, you never know with these books.” Heh. But I do wonder if we’ll eventually find out about something significant—an oath to Gavilar, or to one of her children, that she didn’t keep in its intent, at least. I could easily see that; it seems fairly clear that her first marriage left something to be desired in later years.
Meaningful Motivations
L: So… Dalinar. Boy, do we need to talk about Dalinar, and his slow but steady usurpation of the throne. I get where he’s coming from here—Elhokar isn’t doing a bang-up job of… well… anything, really. But does that make it right for Dalinar to pull authority slowly but steadily out from under his feet? Is” the honorable thing” just another victim sacrificed on the altar of “saving the world,” or might there be another way that Dalinar just isn’t seeing because he’s so accustomed to taking what he wants or needs by force?
A: I’ve always had trouble putting this in black-and-white. Dalinar doesn’t want to be king, he just wants to do what needs to be done. A whole lot of lives are at stake here, and they really don’t have time to twiddle their thumbs while Elhokar recovers from severe blood loss so he can make decisions again. I think if he’d been a good king, it wouldn’t matter so much, but everyone knows that, despite good intentions, he really wasn’t a good king. For years, Dalinar had to be power-behind-the-throne just to keep things from going completely pear-shaped. On the other hand, if Dalinar hadn’t been the ruthless Blackthorn all those years, it wouldn’t look so much like he was usurping the throne.
Argh. The pragmatic side of me is totally with Dalinar: you have to take action when it’s needed, because the world is on the line. Do your best to make decisions that Elhokar will be glad to support, but get on with it. The empathetic side of me is conflicted, because Elhokar is the Alethi king, and Dalinar has sworn to serve him. The uncertain young(ish) king can’t help but resent it when his oh-so-competent uncle steps in and takes over for him, no matter how badly he was injured at the time.
Cosmere Connections
“….I have felt… something else. A warmth and a light. It is not that God has died, it is that the Almighty was never God.”
L: Okay so… if the Almighty wasn’t God, what is this warmth and light Dalinar senses? Is there a True God presiding over the entirety of the Cosmere, and this is what Dalinar’s feeling?
A: Got it in one. At least, I think so. I have a couple of mutually exclusive theories on this. One is that, despite the Shattering, there remains a hidden but unbroken essence of Adonalsium, which will regather the Shards when the time is right. The other is that Adonalsium was never God any more than Honor was—that he was only a representative. In either case, I’m almost sure that the warmth and light Dalinar experienced in WoR Chapter 89 was the True God over the Cosmere.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
Passionspren fluttered around them like crystal flakes of snow.
L: This is such a cool mental image. So beautiful. I don’t recall having seen passionspren before, which… makes sense, given that Sanderson is historically pretty stand-off-ish about writing passionate scenes between lovers.
A: They showed up once before—the first time Dalinar kissed Navani, in TWoK Chapter 61.
L: What? I didn’t remember something from an earlier book? I am shocked. Shocked I say! ::laughs::
…High above, starspren swirled and made distant patterns.
L: This is another one I don’t recall having seen before. I wonder if there are actual stars, and then starspren in addition to them? Where do they reside, exactly? In space, or the upper atmosphere?
A: We’ve seen them all of three times before, and at one point Kaladin notes that they are rare. They seem to reside in the air—high enough that no one thinks of them being in reach, but still low enough to be visible. In one of the chasm chapters, Shallan notes that clouds hide the stars, but she can see starspren between her and the clouds. (As a side note, I developed a new theory recently. I was looking for descriptions of the various bonding spren, and discovered that highspren—those that bond Skybreakers—appear like rips in the air, through which you can see stars. So my new theory is that starspren are the “cousins” to highspren, as windspren are to honorspren.)
L: Sorry, all I can see in my head is the crack in time from Doctor Who…
All through the gathered guests, smoky blue awespren rings burst out above heads.
A: We haven’t seen these much, either! In WoR, a single awespren bursts above Dalinar when Shallan shows him her Lightweaving, and she thinks that she’d seen such a spren only a handful of times in her life. We also saw one last week, when Dalinar was being amazed at Teleb’s archery. This week, there is a veritable cloud of the things, as the guests react to the Stormfather’s overwhelming presence.
… She was ringed by gloryspren, the golden lights rotating above her head.
A: I love that Navani, instead of an awespren, draws gloryspren. There has been an ongoing debate about the name of these things, since we see them in some very odd situations. Sometimes they seem to reflect how a person feels about their own accomplishment, and sometimes they seem more about how others see that person. In this case, it seems pretty clear that Navani is overjoyed at having finally married the man she loves. It’s also interesting to see the swirl of gloryspren here, considering how they behave at the end of the book. Do you suppose the Stormfather’s presence brought them, or are they purely a response to Navani’s emotions?
He ran over, trailing joyspren in the shape of blue leaves that hurried to keep up with him.
A: Adolin is such a gem. I love the way he is totally, unabashedly happy for them. Even the spren can’t keep up!
L: Adolin Kholin is a gift and I will duel with Shardblades against anyone who disagrees.
Quality Quotations
And vast seas of glowing red eyes, coming awake like spheres suddenly renewed with Stormlight.
Highstorms were the ultimate expression of nature’s power: wild, untamed, sent to remind man of his insignificance. However, highstorms never seemed hateful. This storm was different. It felt vengeful.
She’s gone, leaving debris that mars my memory.
I appreciate the man you’ve become; you should avoid reminding me of the man you once were.
A: I’m not entirely sure we did justice to this chapter; there were so many different, scattered things to collect. (Or maybe that was just my brain?) Anyway, whatever we left out, bring it up in the comments! Next week, we’ll catch up with our foremost Windrunner—
L: FINALLY.
A: —on his mission to protect his parents from renegade parshmen. If all goes well, we’ll cover Chapter 5, “Hearthstone,” and Chapter 6, “Four Lifetimes.” They’re both relatively short chapters—together, about as many pages as this week’s single chapter. Go forth, comment, and reread!
Alice is tired of winter again, after not one but two more snowfalls this week. Can it be spring now? Meanwhile, she’s looking forward to her first time at Emerald City Comic Con, where she’ll be assisting the lovely Kara Stewart at the Dragonsteel booth. Be sure to stop by if you’re at the con!
Lyndsey is hip deep in work for Anime Boston currently. Between coordinating the Cosplay Masquerade and trying to get four cosplays of her own (and for friends and family) completed, her free time has basically eroded to zilch. But she’s still trying to remember to post the occasional update on Facebook or her website.
I really like the use of Kadash in this book as a sort of ‘what, it gets worse?!’ measurement. We know he leaves after Dalinar does something really terrible, so every flashback chapter in which something happens, we think ‘well, that was it’, and then we see Kadash again, and we know it must have been worse than the thing that came before. I thought it was an interesting/horrifying way to ‘raise the stakes’
Also, I think it was said that Dalinar and Kadash weren’t particularly close when Kadash was a soldier. It wasn’t until after he became an ardent that they became friends. So I’m not sure I agree with Dalinar destroying Kadash’s loyalty at the Rift, since Kadash doesn’t seem to see it that way, but I think you two are right that Kadash sees Dalinar’s new religious believes as a deep betrayal. However, in later chapters he seems to think it’s a personal failure on his part as well, as Dalinar’s spiritual advisor, which is interesting.
This might be a typo: ‘does that make it might for Dalinar to pull authority?’. I know might makes right is a saying that definitely applies to the Alethi, but here it should probably say ‘right’. :)
I was thinking that maybe an oath that Navani may have broken is an oath to love Gavilar forever–which could have been broken as she grew to love Dalinar.
Mark me down as someone who is deeply curious about what oaths Navani may have broken before. I can definitely see it being like Rowan said, just about not holding true to Gavilar, but I think it may be something else.
I like the star-spren/high-spren connection! I’m on board with that pairing.
I wonder how long it would take to hie to damnation…
Cosmere connection: In Mistborn related works especially we get references to the “God Beyond” – I think there are references in a few other books (Shadows for Silence?) – and I think that is the warmth and light it is referring to. What it is… I don’t know. Alice has some good thoughts. But it seems that there is a place that souls in the cosmere go that is beyond the three realms and there is a presence there that appears to be godlike.
I like seeing the spren highlighted in here-I always seem to skim past them too quickly to fully appreciate them in the actual text.
At the end of the chapter, I remember thinking that when Dalinar goes off after Navani and belatedly thinks of her as his wife, it was sweet that he was reminding himself he was finally married. When I read it again this time, though, I found it ominous instead, with the placement right after the conversation about the Rift, when he killed his first wife. It’s cool that those two little words could provoke such different reactions!
It was a great relief when Dalinar finally shared his big secret. Protagonists not sharing information we know with each other is always painful to read.
Does anybody have an explanation for this? I am not sure whether it was discussed before, but I was thinking about implications during my first read and the sentence caught my attention again. Why were the guards so exhausted after experiencing the Stormfather at the wedding?
PS: I usually don’t post as I am not that Cosmere aware and discussing such things in English is quite difficult for me. However, I really enjoy reading your comments. So I want to thank you all for your great ideas! :)
This was a great chapter, and was the cause of my first Big Wrong Theory in Oathbringer (spoilers for later in the book).
Big Wrong Theory: Almost immediately after the wedding, Dalinar starts recovering his memories of his first wife. Why? Well, obviously, because his boon/curse was to forget his wife, and now Navani is his wife, so:
a) he will now remember the previous wife, and
b) he will start to forget Navani, probably starting from when they first met.
I was really, really happy to find out that this was wrong. So far, anyway….
I’m with the God Beyond theory, for metanarrative reasons: it feels like about the right point in the greater Cosmere underplot to start learning more about that entity. (From the name it seems like the Kabbalistic supreme being, which in general only intervenes via intermediary.)
Dalinar remembering him retching his guts out on the battlefield is horrifying—for a man so battle-hardened to do that, he must have cared for her.
I assumed that he was throwing up because of the general brutality- it’s made clear that what happened at the Rift is monstrous even by Alethi standards.
My personal theory for the lifts is that the huge center column that goes down deep in the mountains obviously runs Urithru. they just haven’t found a way to let the storms charge it up yet. the Knights knowing that sometimes the power need of the city would be greater than the power provided by the column set up some of the lifts to be used by the powered up gemstones so they could still use some lifts to get where they need to go.
If I recall correctly it is also stated in Words of Radiance that the Everstorm is new.different. I forget where, but I also recall it implying later in Oathbringer that the Everstorm never happened before. This implies to me in the past there was a different function for the Voidbringer’s getting their voidlight. First it was Odium, then it was Mish Ado (forget the rest of the name). Now it is the everstorm. My own theory about why it does not infuse gems is it is not needed. Voidbringers hold voidlight perfectly. Every instance that we have seen a voidbringer using surges, they use them non-stop. It is also compared that whereas Radiants can get greater bursts of speed or use more stormlight in shorter bursts for greater results, the Voidbringers however use sustained more moderate amounts. This results to me in the Voidbringers getting far far far greater duration out of their voidlight compared to Radiants (at least up to the number of oaths we have seen so far).
The mirror is definitely from the warcamps and not radiant sourced. They had moved all of Dalinar’s furniture into the main room, but decided later to move it so he could have a sitting room.
I think the reason why everyone thought Dalinar loved Evi so much is because the Alethi do not do public displays of affection. It was mentioned how even Sadeas scratching Ialai’s back was seen as overly PDA (which Sadeas and Ialai didn’t care but still). So Dalinar being distant with Evi around his men and relatives would seem natural, and the fighting was limited to “behind the scenes”. Sure some got out, and I do not think this is the only reason, but I feel it certainly helped the impression.
I think personally Navani wasn’t really content with Gavilar. The impression that I got was once Gavilar chose Navani, Dalinar practically shoved her away. He couldn’t stand to be around her otherwise he would desire her and he was afraid where that would lead. So from Navani’s perspective, the guy she loves clearly wants nothing to do with her, and the other man she thinks is ok clearly does, so she went along with it.
I agree his involvement probably played a large part. I think this because if it was the action itself, or Dalinar, then why when he joined the ardentia would he chose to serve the very man that torched the town? Why still call him friend and try to guide him? So I do think it is from him still seeing the blood on his hands, regardless whether or not he was just following orders.
I agree, I think the broken oath of Navani has to do with Gavilar and something he either made her do, or made her feel she had to do and as she got to see the real him, she broke the oath. She clearly has no regrets in breaking whatever oath that was, and stood strong and ready to defend herself for it, so I feel she feels she was justified in it.
Personally I like that Brandon has said he wants to keep the God Beyond deliberately vague. So yeah this could be Adonalsium, it could be the God Beyond, or I suggest it could even be Cultivation herself. Odium has golden light, don’t see why another Shard couldn’t
Maybe the lifts were retro-fitted to work as they do now after the Sibling retreated from powering the tower’s functions and they had to evacuate Urithiru?
Was I the only one who was surprised that Dalinar and Navani weren’t already in a physical relationship? I certainly had that impression back in WoR.
And when the talk about Dalinar being unable to find an ardent who’d perform the marriage started, did anybody else expect that Zahel would be the one to finally oblige? In fact, I am still surprised that he wasn’t at least asked.
Speaking of the gemstones being able to contain voidlight – I am not sure that Odium can or would wish to provide investiture as freely as Honor, and presumably Cultivation, do (though we don’t know for sure how hers expresses itself, IIRC). That would require him to heavily Invest in Roshar, which is unable and probably unwilling to do. We know that the Heralds used to be powered directly by Honor and didn’t need stormlight in the past – from everything that I have seen so far, it is my impression that the same arrangement is in place with Odium and the Fused. In fact, Honor seems to have cribbed a lot from Odium when he empowered the Heralds, including giving them access to the Surges, which humans on Roshar couldn’t use until then. OTOH, it is also possible that gemstones need to be cut in a specific manner so that they can be infused with voidlight, like fabrial gemstones.
Re: Elhokar, I don’t know – he could have asked Dalinar to include him in his planning instead of sulking. His wound didn’t keep him unconscious or delirious. Alternatively, Dalinar could have offered to keep him in the loop. It wasn’t impossible to deal with the matter gracefully, but people would be people, even when they are well-intentioned. In fact, I feel that some discussion re: needs of the world versus the needs of Alethkar should have happened between them and it’s lack is a bit of a letdown. But then, this goes along with the general indifference of the Alethi towards what was happening to their homeland in OB, which I personally find highly implausible, but may have been the result of Sanderson wishing to partition various problems that our protagonists are facing between the books. So, maybe we’ll see some more natural reactions in Book 4, going along with the plot issues reserved for it.
Navani and the gloryspren – she also got some whirling around her during the climax. Now, that may be just the result of her connection to Dalinar and his Bondsmithness, or it may hint at things to come regarding her character.
I like the Stormfather in this chapter. He makes a grand appearance that leaves most people (other than Dalinar and a few others, I think) in awe. He then presides over, what I gather for Vorin weddings, the quickest ceremony in history. Short, simple and to the point. The best type of religious ceremony (IMO).
Maybe in her youth, Navani made an oath to herself that she would always follow her heart when it came to matters of love. Yet she had to break this oath when she chose to marry Gavilar over Dalinar. I do not think this is the answer, but who knows.
I believe it was Amaram in WoR who described it best when he told Dalinar that Dalinar will eventually have to learn to let go. Amaram told Dalinar that Dalinar has a habit of assigning somebody something but nevertheless not completely relinquish control with respect to the assigned task. This makes it appear to the outside world that Dalinar is usurping such an individual’s authority. That is exactly what Dalinar has done to Elhokar since Dalinar has returned from the Nightwatcher.
Bridget @6. I always read sagging of the guards as an effect of the overwhelming feeling of awe they felt when the Stormfather arrived to officiate the wedding. I did not buy the theory that others suggested during the posting of the chapters pre-release who believed it was Dalinar starting the “squiring effect.”
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I thought I saw some where in WOK where full Radients could hold and use Stormlight as efficiently or nearly as efficiently as a Voidbringer. (Not the original Voidbringers aka humanity but the new Voidbringer aka the Parshendi ancestors.) If I’m not misremembering, then that means to me that the higher the oath count, the better one is able to use available Stormlight in addition to the obvious ability to do more stuff. Basically, running up a wall for instance, is easier for a level 3 Radient than a level 2 not just because of more available power, but because the level 3 guy leaks less.
I absolutely love the wedding scene (aaaalmost as much as Kaladin’s reunion with his family). I am absolutely delighted that Dalinar and Navani are married and so happy, I really like them giving their oaths to the Stormfather, and I totally adore how happy Adolin and Renarin are over this.
I agree that it was so good to finally see Dalinar confiding his secret about Evi to Navani, as I also agree with Alice that part of why Kadash was so shaken was the part he himself played, and with Rowan that the oath Navani broke was related to loving Gavilar (although it might be something else entirely, and makes me very curious). Huh. A lot of agreeing today on my part.
“Let the ardents hie to Damnation, with ribbons around their ankles.”
Obviously, I have been influenced this week by old love, since the first thing that popped to my head while reading this was “pink ribbons” …
@12 Isilel
Originally in Words of Radiance they were still chaperoned. It is only as of Oathbringer that we start to see them alone together.
I believe Zahel would have still refused as was shown when Dalinar sparred with the Ardents and Zahel although did not spurn Dalinar, he did not want to get involved.
Stormlight existed prior to Honor and Cultivation investing in Roshar. The highstorms were a creation of Adonalsium. Honor later co-opted the highstorm.
@13 AndrewHB
I believe the sagging feeling is a mirror to what Cusichech (butchered the spelling i know), does to people viewing it when it appears. They also feel drained
@14 Evilmonkey
I do agree that as a radiant develops in oaths they hold stormlight better and better. I just indicated in comparison to the current level of oaths our current radiants are at the voidbringers seem to be voidbinding constantly without any fear of running out, while for the radiants, it is a finite resource to be rationed.
@Isilel
Also sorry but forgot to add, at this point in the story they only know there are riots in Kholinar. Not how bad the riots are, nor if the city is in danger from them. Not that all of Alethkar is being invaded yet. They know that parshmen across the globe have changed. Into what, and what they are doing they have no knowledge. So at this stage they do not know anything. Kaladin has not reached the transformed parshmen yet, nor does he know what they are like, where they are going, nor how they are organizing.
I suspect we may see more about Navani and her broken oath in a future book. Because: foreshadowing. It also seems to open her to being “broken” in a way that may lead to Radiance.
Since Navani is most connected with fabrials it seems like she might have been involved somehow with the black spheres that Gavilar had. At any rate, she HAS trapped spren and knows how to do so to lesser spren for sure. I remember reading something about Gavilar not really listening when she talked about her work though.
As for Elhokar, he was basically a weak and ineffectual king. If it hadn’t been for Dalinar backing him I bet Sadeus would have overthrown him. Dalinar was a total control freak no doubt but if Elhokar had personal strength it wouldn’t have mattered.
I think Kadash is going to be the focus for problems that Dalinar will have with the Ardents of the Holy Enclave and the councils. The councils are too stone tied to their precepts to look beyond or ahead. Celebrinnen @@@@@ 15, That is the exact thought I had when I read that sentence! “Pink Ribbons” indeed!! LOL!
I love this chapter! I’m so happy for Dalinar and Navani. I’ve been corrupted though. I keep hearing it in the crazy voices from that video Alice shared on the reread group right before the release-with Yoda as the stormfather.
I am sure Navani’s broken oath deals with Gavilar somehow, or maybe from Jasnah’s childhood Illness. With how good she shows herself at holding groups together, I have her down as a future Bondsmith, but we will have to RAFO that I’m sure.
Wall of text warning – I’m catching up with the comments!
Elle @@@@@1 – It was a typo, and is now corrected. Thanks!
whitespine @@@@@3 – Glad you like the spren connection. I was doing some research the other day on what we know and what we can guess about the name, appearance, and other connections of the bonding spren for each order. Blew me away when I thought about the appearance of the highspren in that context! Also, the literal connection is kind of funny – highspren linked to starspren, who appear high in the sky.
Also, I too think that “the God Beyond” is what Dalinar is experiencing – or something directly connected, anyway. Whether they all think they mean the same thing is questionable, of course, since each world thinks their Shard is actually God…
Bridget @@@@@6 –
I also wondered about that, but I don’t have any good theories as to why the guards, more than the rest of the attendees, would react so strongly. Anyone else?
katre @@@@@7 – That theory came up repeatedly when people were discussing the preview chapters, and I had to sit on my hands so much!! It had honestly never occurred to me during the beta, and I don’t recall anyone else suggesting it either. I was truly surprised by the number of people who strongly believed that Dalinar would forget Navani.
Samadai @@@@@10 – That’s an interesting theory, and it makes sense of why only some of the lifts work – if they only set up a few of them to be run independently, the others would still be waiting for the big power-up (which I really hope we see in book 4!).
Scath @@@@@11 – Nice theory! It makes a certain amount of sense. The name you’re looking for is Ba-Ado-Mishram, and this ties in neatly with the theory that since we (apparently) haven’t seen her yet, she may be the one trapped in that gemstone Gavilar gave to Szeth. I’d wondered why, if trapping her took away the parshmen’s ability to take other forms, they could suddenly do it again even though we don’t have evidence that she’d been released. If the mechanism has been transferred from the Unmade to the Everstorm… well, okay then. I still wonder why the Listeners were able to change forms and begin discovering new ones while the parshmen were stuck in slaveform, but if I think about it for a while I’ll probably find an answer.
Isilel @@@@@ 12 – True, retrofitting a few lifts to use gem-held Stormlight during the shutdown process would make sense. It still explains why only some of them work, so I like the theory as a whole.
I’ve wondered about this for a while too, though I hadn’t connected the two scenes. My first thought was that Navani might bond the Sibling, which would be appropriate to the theme of Navani as artifabrian. For other thematic elements, such as her relationship with Dalinar, it seems more appropriate for her to bond the Nightwatcher, and one of the ardent artifabrians – Rushu, by my choice – to bond the Sibling. Navani seems the more likely to be persistent enough to wake up the Sibling, though, since it will be over the objections of the Stormfather.
Celebrinnen @@@@@15
Oh, that’s just way too funny. I didn’t realize it until you spelled it out, but in my mental image, the ribbons were pink! BAHAHAHAHA!
Scath @@@@@17 – To expand on your point just a tish, at this point the parshmen in Alethkar are only just beginning to transform. The Everstorm that Dalinar observes in the beginning of the chapter is on its first trip across the entire continent – this is the same storm that Lift experienced just hours before, in the end of Edgedancer.
snaggletoothedwoman @@@@@19 – IIRC, Dalinar mentions at the end of the book that Kadash is beginning to rethink some of the claims of Vorinism in light of the Eila Stele translations, so I hope he’s part of the reconciliation rather than the conflict!
stormlightchick @@@@@20 – I like (for a certain definition of the word) the idea that Navani’s broken oaths might deal with Jasnah’s illness. We all expect it to be related to Gavilar, so that seems a little too easy and obvious. Makes me think that if it is significant, it will be something else – or at least something other than wedding vows. Perhaps he swore her to secrecy regarding the spren-trapping, and she broke it for the sake of an advancement in fabrials.
I remember reading something in the discussion on the preview chapters about the draining effect from the stormfather and from cusisesch may hint to cusisesch being the third bondsmith spren.
@21 you mentioned about the listeners forms. I always assumed when they said they betrayed their gods that was when the gods were still around they left the voidforms and only used forms that they had before Odium came, bonding to honorspren instead of voidspren. The problem was that the only of those forms they still knew was mateform, which they must have needed even under Odium, and they had to rediscover all the others.
@21 Wetlandernw
I liked the theory that Dalinar would forget Navani, not because I wanted it to happen mind you, but because the idea of this theory upset/saddened a lot of people. I thought it was very touching that so many people were worried that Dalinar and Navani would lose their second chance at love. I am very happy that in the end they didn’t lose that.
Thanks Wetlandernw! I have a few things to respond to. First I think there was some function that Odium directly caused the voidbringers to take listeners bodies, and after awhile, B-Ado-Mishram learned the mechanism and she did it for some time. I wonder if any insights could be gained from looking into the book series Dragonriders of Pern. When it was described in book by Nale about the voidspren making the transition between planets, it immediately made me think of the Thread and the cycles of the Thread Fall. Brandon also has said it is one of his favorite series, so I could see him being inspired by it. This part is pure conjecture, but I wonder if what Ba-Ado-Mishram did with the listeners is similar to a nahel bond. The unmade “bonded” the listeners to feed them voidlight and allow the fused to take on bodies. The Listeners fled, or refused this bond, betraying their people resulting in dullform. When the Radiants locked away Ba-Ado-Mishram, it tore away that “bond” and acted a lot like a spren whose radiant broke their oaths. The “datajack” was torn out, preventing them from “bonding” any spren in order to change forms. The everstorm healed that connection, forming a new “data jack” in which they could “bond” with new spren and take new forms. The listeners having rid themselves of the bond before it was torn away, were able to maintain that “datajack” so they could “bond” and change their forms later. What is especially interesting, is that if I am right, then this spiritual damage is hereditary.
Basically I could see it being like the old monitor wires that plugged into a computer tower that came with screws. The listeners when they fled, they undid the screws, and voluntarily unplugged so their jacks remained whole. When the Radiants bound Bad- Ado – Mishram, the cord was yanked out, tearing out pieces of the tower with it, so now no new plug could be inserted. The Everstorm installed a knew card and jack to plug into.
A few quick thoughts:
I also loved how happy Adolin was for his father and his new stepmom, even as he was dealing with all his internal issues over Sadeas, his reduction in status and importance (for example when compared with Shallan), and maybe losing his sense of place in the world with all the Radiants running around. He’s still able to put all that aside and feel genuine joy for those he loves. I have a feeling Evi would have been like that too.
The Stormfather is the coolest celebrant of all time.
@1 – I agree, that was some epic foreshadowing. Especially when they had the FIRST Rift flashback…and nothing particularly bad happened…and I was like…Sanderson isnt going to just foreshadow, hes going to tease us like that as well???!!
“Your life is defined by deciding what you want and seizing it. The rest of us could learn from that, if only we could figure out how to keep up.” I feel that way about a lot of people, and it really is embittering. Sympathy to Elhokar here.
@7 I worried about that theory when it was raised, for the suffering it would bring Navani. Like a very subject-specific version of the way dementia can make a person slowly forget their loved ones, even those living with them. That happened to a friend and her wife, and it was heartbreaking.
Two things:
1. I’m happy that Adolin is happy about Dalinar and Navani’s marriage
2. I just cannot get myself to feel something for Navani. I don’t dislike, but I don’t trust her at all. I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Bridget @6
“Dalinar’s new guards sagged, looking suddenly exhausted.”
I’ve always taken it to mean that the body guards were like “OH GOD THERE’S A GIANT DANGEROUS SPREN HERE AND IS ALSO THE STORM HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO PROTECT DALINAR AND EVERYONE AGAINST THAT IF THE STORMFATHER TRIES TO SMITE US!?! WE’VE ONLY GOT STORMING SPEARS!!” when the Stormfather showed up and were sagging in relief because nothing terrible happened.
This may be too simplistic, but I read the guards’ exhaustion as emotional exhaustion. Dalinar himself remarks that he had to fight the urge to shrink away from the Stormfather, and these men are his new guards just realizing what they have signed up for. I would think that would take the energy away from anyone!
I agree that Adolin Kholin is a gift – what a wonderful man to be so full of genuine happiness for others. He brightens every scene he is in. I can’t wait for the reread of the chapter he starts teaching Shallan to use Pattern as a blade; that is one of my favorite chapters of the book.
I also am curious about Navani’s broken oaths, but I somehow don’t expect them to be anything too terrible. Perhaps they do relate to Jasnah’s illness as someone suggested. I could see her making an oath never to leave Jasnah to suffer alone, for example, but then being cajoled into it by a doctor or by Gavilar. I just can’t imagine the Stormfather marrying Dalinar to her so cooly if he knew she had broken major oaths. I know he expresses his extreme opinion about oaths here, but we do see grow in his understanding of human emotion and complex motivations throughout the books. I also had assumed Dalinar and Navani weren’t physical, not necessarily because of what the book said but because it seemed like something Brandon would do. I remember from the Warbreaker annotations that Brandon and his wife waited until they were married, and I like that he has a lot of his characters do the same (Navani & Dalinar, Shallan & Adolin, Vin & Elend, Siri and Susebron waiting until they are in love within the forced marriage). I also waited by choice and it is nice to see others making the same choice when it feels like it is becoming less mainstream.
This chapter really is a gem, great re-read! I was actually really disappointed that we didn’t get to see Shallan’s and Adolin’s wedding to get an idea of what a normal lighteyed Alethi wedding is like, and was hoping it would kick off the next book until I saw somewhere that there would be a year time jump. Maybe a flashback…
I find Kadash to be an intriguing character. To have a hardened warrior, within a warring society, breaking down and throwing up on the battlefield truly illustrates the horror Dalinar unleashed onto Rathalas. It makes it even more compelling this warrior gave up the sword to pick up a peaceful way, completely opposite to the man he once was. I also believe he is one of the six individuals to know the truth about the Rift… to know what Dalinar did, to know how Evi really died and who really ordered a town filled with civilians to be made an example, an act so vile Gavilar had to hide the truth.
I personally found really interesting to read Adolin believes Sadeas is responsible for the Rift and Dalinar was too overcome by grief to stop him….
I thought Adolin’s “whooooo” moment showed how much more expressive he is when compared to the average Alethi. I also suspect Evi would have reacted in a similar manner. Still, it is great he is able to be happy for others when his own world isn’t doing so great, but as always, I keep waiting for the moment where it will all be too much. Nobody can suck through everything, always, forever.
@11 Scath: I agree with your analysis of the Dalinar/Evi relationship. I too found it odd everyone seemed to assume he loved her dearly when, in truth, the flashbacks showed us a man who didn’t care much for Evi. He even goes as far as to state he wished she were gone, though not how she ended up being gone. I always felt he was never really sad Evi died, but he felt guilty he failed her and caused it. He however does not miss her. Sad.
I find your explanation makes sense: Alethi do not display their affection nor their emotions. We get to see how Alethi reacts when Adolin becomes forthcoming in his affection for Shallan. Westerner, they called him. Hence, it is entirely possible Navani never interpreted Dalinar’s coldness towards Evi as a “lack of love”. She seems to have genuinely assume he did love her though really, the flashbacks tell us he never did.
@12 Isilel: I agree with you on Elhokar. Early in my reading of OB, one of my first thoughts was: “Where is Elhokar?”. His injury didn’t seem dire enough to warrant him absenting himself from every single decision making moment, especially when we see Adolin/Kaladin pushing through theirs. Especially since we now know, being an early proto-knight, he likely had access to unconscious healing, just like Kaladin did back in WoK, prior to him saying his first oath. Either way, I always felt the injury was a convenient excuse. It is convenient for Dalinar to excuse his usurping of the throne over Elhokar being too injured to make the decisions. It is convenient for Elhokar to have his injury as an excuse to justify why he allows it to happen.
Still, I do agree it would have been possible for Dalinar to include Elhokar, for Elhokar to be more pro-active and to demand to be included.
I am also with you in wondering why no one seems concern over the faith of Alethkar. The other Highprinces seem not to care or, if they did, it doesn’t come across within the narrative. A whole populace have been left to their own demise while Dalinar thinks of helping the whole world when he can’t help his own people. Perhaps this will be a theme within the next book.
Sorry everyone, I have to bring this version of the chapter back to our attention. :-D
I will never forget the look on Brandon’s face when he said “What?!”
https://www.tor.com/2017/11/13/watch-brandon-sanderson-and-the-ridiculous-readers-perform-a-scene-from-oathbringer/
And, once again, I love the description of the bridal crown. I want one, even though I’m already married.
@15 – Pink Ribbons! Hahaha!!!
Honestly, I figured it referred to a celebration we had not seen yet.
But, speaking of WoT, in this chapter we have a great example of the characters NOT behaving like the teens in WoT. Here we have characters ofvtge opposite sex talking to each other and telling each other important information! Yea!
Re: Kadash
As we learn later, Evi tried to be a good Alethi wife, and traveled with Dalinar during his campaigns. So I believe 100% that Kadash knew her. Was probably as friendly with her as with other officers wives. Because the wives are around to take and read the reports.
So not only did Kadash help kill her, he helped kill a friend.
It’s one thing to kill enemy combatants. It’s a whole other level to kill a friend and an entire town with all the civilian population and combatants alike.
But more on that when we get there.
My point here, is that I firmly believe Kadash knew Evi.
Great comments so far. I’m also liking the Starspren/Highspren connection and @11 Scath’s theory on voidlight. Very cool!
With regards to Dalinar and the Rift, I guess I’m a little surprised that he isn’t reminded of that day more often. I know that hardly anyone knows what truly happened there to Evi, but the act of burning the town itself brought him a fearsome reputation, no? I’d imagine that the Alethi would talk about it more, especially as they saw him appear to decline in prestige. Even Adolin knew of the Rift. Is it just the magic of the Nightwatcher starting to wear off that this is the first time that it catches his attention? Or is the event so unspeakable that people really don’t talk about it?
When I read this my take was that the Stormfather views oaths in much the same way as Nale views laws. Nale seems to view laws as an end to themselves, to be followed with strictness with no thought of their moral context. Or at least when it suits his purposes I guess. The Stormfather may be likewise a bit fanatical about oaths. I get this mental image of what it must be like to be his kid. “Dad, can I stay up late?” “Swear to me son that you will be in bed by 9!”
I could benefit from a binding oath to be in bed by 9 (she says groggily at 1:25 AM).
Why no one seems to care about the homeland Alethkar:
It’s pretty obvious from the narrative that the Shattered Plains has become the de facto capital of the country. Everything of importance is there, up to and including all it’s leadership, well there and Urithiru. I don’t see Alethi lords and ladies as those that generally protect their provinces except maybe Sebarial. Most of them seem only interested in conquest for conquest’s sake. If that’s indeed their mindset thrn I don’t find it surprising that the homeland is semi-forgotten in the face of the current crisis. Kal cares so he goes back home. He’s only allowed because he can travel speedily and can serve as a scout for the entire region. Lastly, how strong is the Alethi army now? With the recent battle for the Plains and the Everstorm, how large an army can they now field when they still need troops to protect Urithiru? I don’t think it’s enough to retake the homeland, not anymore.
Re: The Fate of Alethkar – Remember that at this point, they have no idea what’s going to happen. They expect that the parshmen will take voidforms and start fighting, but they don’t expect any organization. They tried to send messages that the parshmen were going to become dangerous, but as yet, the Everstorm hasn’t reached Alethkar. (Well, by the time of the actual wedding, it might have, but we don’t even know that.)
@12: Zahel, like Rlain, disappears from the narrative rather early and is never heard from again. Sanderson is building up to something.
@16, “… Voidbinding constantly without any fear of running out …” Keep in mind that the final Battle of Thaylen City is taking place in the Everstorm. I’d expect it to constantly power the Fused (and Unmade) just as the Highstorm powers Radiants (and Heralds).
Edit: and of course, Fused have gemhearts. One can speculate that on Roshar, containing a gem inside your body makes it easier to store Voidlight or Stormlight. (Sanderson being his clever self, this would be a deliberate analogy to Scadrial, where having a metalmind inside your body is a useful trick.)
Scath @17:
I am not really sure why you keep bringing up Kaladin, as he has almost nothing to do with the reaction to parshmen transformation and marching off towards Alethkar that I’d expect from the rest of the Alethi. In fact, look at Kaladin’s own fears for his hometown during his mad dash – he expects the newly changed Voidbringers to slaughter everybody. That’s also what Dalinar was warning anybody who would listen about – and after having been just proven right about so much, after soldiers of the 4 armies seeing the stormforms with their own eyes, I’d think that at least his own people in Urithiru wouldn’t have dismissed him out of hand. So, why aren’t all the other people who have families and interests back home as panicked as Kaladin, or at least seriously worried?
Wetlandernw @36:
But that’s my point – the perspective of parshmen taking on voidforms and suddenly attacking unsuspecting populace should be more than enough to freak out the Alethi in Urithiru, particularly those from the big cities, where most of the parshmen seemed to be concentrated. I mean, put yourself in their shoes – would you react as Kaladin did, or with the unnaturally calm acceptance of everybody else?
EvilMonkey @35:
While it is true that the Shattered Plains became the de-facto capital, it doesn’t make sense that the Highprinces and the other rich and influential people, leave alone the commoners, wouldn’t have family that they care about back home. Not to mention property, financial interests, etc. Most of the Highprinces are middle-aged and older – they should have adult children minding the lands back home, grandchildren, etc. It would make zero sense for Elhokar to be the only one with family back in Alethkar. And BTW, him being only mildly worried about them was a bit jarring too.
Scath @23:
My conclusion from Eshonai’s chapters in WoR, listener “Songs” epigraphs ditto and “gem” epigraphs from OB is that Bo-Ado-Mishram somehow robbed the parsh of their ability to transform on their own. All the forms could only be gotten with her “help” and she could also force forms on them against their will. The Fused were not around during the False Desolation, but BAM had such complete control over the parsh that she could compensate, somewhat.
But then, some parsh have discovered how to change into the dullform on their own – and that change also let them dissolve their Connection to BAM. Those planned and effected their escape from her and became the ancestors of the listeners. They had to slowly and laborously re-discover how to take on other forms on their own, though.
The rest of the parsh got violently lobotomised when BAM was imprisoned, because they were Connected to her at the time, and somehow their impairment turned out to be heritable. I do wonder about the parsh children who hadn’t yet undergone their first transformation at the time when she was trapped – surely they wouldn’t have been Connected to her yet and therefore would have retained their cognitive faculties? Did they become the ancestors of Herdazians, perhaps?
Oh, and I have nothing about Dalinar’s guards getting particularly exhausted, but one thing that I am pretty sure of is that the Bondsmiths are the (an?) Order that doesn’t get squires. In fact, they are probably only an “Order” by technicality, as their spren seem to be pretty different from each other and in all likelyhood would require different Oaths to progress. We have a WoB that not all Orders get squires, and so far Windrunners, Skybreakers, Lightweavers and Dustbringers (from Dalinar’s Purelake vision back in WoK) are those which have been confirmed on-page to posess squires. The rest are up in the air in that regard.
Concerning Navani – yes, I am also pegging her for the future Sibling’s Bondsmith, with Rlain becoming Nightwatcher’s.
@38
Consider the Alethi culture and the unique dynamic of the armies in Urithiru and the Shattered Plains. There are many more civilians in an Alethi army than most armies we’ve seen in a fantasy setting. Partly this is due to Alethi men using wives, sisters or daughters to do their reading and scribing for them. Part of it is that because the army has occupied the Plains for so long that their families are right there in the camps with them. Rock is an example of this. As soon as he has a stable role in the Alethi army he sends for his family. Not just his wife but all his children as well. We see the same practice in the flashbacks. Adolin as a child spends half the year with Dalinar every year as he’s actively fighting a war of unification. Renarin would have been right there with him had he not been a sickly child. For Alethi, war is a genuine family affair. To me, this means the Alethi aren’t freaking out about their families because they already reside in the war camps. Maybe a few of the rank and file troops decided to leave their families back home and maybe they are nervous but 1. We never get a POV from them and 2. Officer types cannot afford to leave their families behind because of their duties. That only leaves their stuff back home to really freak out about, and they have a bunch of riches from Gem Harvesting and a magnificent empty city to move into. If they have most of the things they care about with them then it makes sense to me that back home isn’t quite as real to them as where they are. This of course assumes that they don’t give much of a damn about their smallfolk.
Regarding Dalinar’s guards being exhausted, I think this is a case where BWS is drawing on a bit of Mormon lore. The early days of the LDS Church were particularly marked with reports of visions and visits from heavenly messengers. The first time Joseph Smith (the founder of the LDS Church) experienced such a vision, he was left weak and physically spent. Years later Joseph and Oliver Cowdery reported an experience of a joint vision. When it was done, Oliver slumped over exhausted. Joseph noted that Oliver wasn’t used to these experiences in the same way he was.
Using those stories as parallels, the implication I drew is that contact with the power of Adolnasium is physically draining for mortals. The more “present” the Stormfather is, the more physically taxing the experience is for participants. Someone pointed out that people tend to feel “drained” after watching Cusicesh’s display. IIR, Dalinar felt drained after when he first started having his visions, although he also tended to act them out, so it could have just been literal physical exhaustion. I don’t recall if any of the others he brought to his visions reported being drained physically after the experience, but in my mind that would be consistent. Following the parallel to Mormon lore, one could get used to flexing these…spiritual muscles? With experience they would become less draining. I don’t know what it says about these guards that they were particularly called out as being physically spent, but it seems consistent that the experience would impact some more than others depending on their “spiritual muscle tone” so to speak.
An extension of the thought, I would think that when Odium, or any other Shard, appears to mortals, he would have to shield his presence somehow to keep from completely overwhelming them. This would be due to the fact that they have so much of Adolnasium’s power and less to do with the specific Attributes they hold (meaning the raw presence of Cultivation or Devotion or Preservation could be just as exhausting and dangerous as the raw presence of Ruin or Odium).
@40: Humans reacting to the presence of a god/ super being with exhaustion after that presence leaves is almost universal in mythology. Not limited to Mormon beliefs.
Brandon does not try to deliberately inject his beliefs into his writing. Often he will write things counter to his own beliefs. (See Jasnah.) While some of his writing choices are because of his beliefs, I do not believe humans reacting with exhaustion to a super being is one of them.
Re: Squires
With there only being 3 Bondsmiths, I’m not sure about his Squire effect. If he does gain any, and they “level up” to KR, they would have to be of a different order. But that’s a RAFO for now.
so a lot to reply to. Hopefully I can fit it all in one post!
@28 Kippur, @29 Evelina and others
I personally am of the thought (like i said back at my post #16), that it is the same exact description Axies gives regarding Cuschiesh. The people observing the spren feel drained. The stormfather showing up in person to people he is not bonded to feel drained. I know Cuschiesh being a bondsmith spren has been possibly disproven due to WoB, but I think this is something all spren of a certain strength and above cause.
@30 Gepeto
I think the lack of public displays of emotion is what made many people assume Dalinar loved Evi, but to say he never loved her at all I think is a bit far. I believe around the time of the Rift Dalinar had begun to love Evi in his own way. He tried for a more peaceful resolution in an attempt to make her happy and to try and be more the man she hoped he could be. Unfortunately that did not work out and he nearly died as result. I think after the Rift, Dalinar felt genuinely upset at her loss and truly came to love her then. He said it himself, he felt he didn’t deserve her, and we see how much her loss tore into him with his tearful moment with Renarin. I feel that moment really defined Dalinar and planted the seed regarding going to the Nightwatcher that Gavilar’s death finally caused to bloom. So in my opinion Dalinar did ultimately love Evi, just in the beginning when he didn’t, everyone assumed he did by acting like a standard Alethi proper husband.
The reaction I will comment more when I reply to Isilel
@32 Braid Tug
I agree. I also think the moment he vomits is poignant. It is just when Dalinar learns all escape for the people were cut off by Sadeas and then they learn about Evi, that Kadash takes in the enormity of what they did and then pukes.
@33 Izzos
Thank you!
I think the reason why no one reminds him of the Rift is 1. he was a raging alcoholic for years after so not sure if anyone really had the “proper” opportunity to bring it up to him and 2. the official story is that Evi was taken hostage and then killed resulting in the Blackthorn being overcome with emotion and Sadeas burning it to the ground. If you lost a loved one in a tragic way, would you want or expect people to come up to you and remind you of it? That coupled with I believe the Alethi propriety of “oh we don’t speak of such things in polite company” is why it had not been brought up often to him
@35 Evilmonkey
I agree with all of this and will go into more detail later
@36 Wetlandernw
I agree with all of this and will go into more detail later
@37 Carl
Keep in mind that we have Venli spend extended amounts of time with the fused and what do we see them doing? Floating cross legged while reading. Floating in front of a window in a room looking out at the camp. Floating high high above just to speak to Moash. Every single time we see the gravitation surge using fused, they are floating. That does not read to me as the same worry as Kaladin anytime he draws in stormlight. They are literally using it while reading. And that isn’t because they are not in combat, because we see instances such as with Moash where they casually use it on others. So it is being actively used as well as passively without any concern of running out between Everstorms which do take time to come.
@38 Isilel
Ah and now we come to the main point I want to discuss. The reason we keep mentioning Kaladin has nothing to do with his reaction. It has everything to do with the information Kaladin supplies. Kaladin is the reason they are going to know what the parshmen changed into. Kaladin is the reason they are going to find out that the parshmen are gathering in Alethkar. And lastly Kaladin is also the reason they know of the fused. At this point in the story, here is what they do know:
Words of Radiance page 1070 “The other lands weren’t listening. He’d managed to speak, via spanreed, with the emperor of Azir himself – a new emperor, as Szeth had visited the last one. There had been no succession war in Azir, of course. Those required too much paperwork. The new emperor had invited Dalinar to visit, but obviously considered his words to be ravings. Dalinar hadn’t realized that rumors of his madness had traveled so far. Even without that, however, he suspected his warnings would be ignored, as the things he spoke of were insane. A storm that blew the wrong way? Parshmen turning into Voidbringers? Only Taravangian of Kharbranth and now apparently Jah Keved had seemed willing to listen. heralds bless that man; hopefully he could bring some peace to that tortured land. Dalinar had asked for more information about how he’d obtained that throne; initial reports indicated he’s stumbled into the position unexpectedly. But he was too new, and Jah Keved too broken for him to be able to do much. Beyond that, there were sudden and unexpected reports, coming via spanreed, of Kholinar rioting. No straight answers there yet, either. And what was this he heard of a plague in the Purelake? Storms, what a mess this all had become”
Oathbringer page 31 “Now that the monarchs of Roshar had refused to listen to Dalinar’s warning that the Everstorm would soon strike them, what else could Dalinar do? The real Kholinar was reportedly consumed by riots – and the queen had gone silent. Dalinar’s armies had limped away from their first confrontation with the Voidbringers, and even many of his own highprinces hadn’t joined him in that battle.
So there are conflicting reports coming in about the riots in Kholinar. Kaladin rushed to Hearthstone not because of the voidbringers. He rushed because Hearthstone was a town sheltered from Highstorms, but not from Everstorms. He wanted to get the people to safety before the storm hit them and the town was destroyed from the storm. The voidbringers were on his mind but it was the devastation potentially caused by the storm he feared. That was his first thoughts when he reached Hearthstone. First that he was too late to get there before the storm. Fear that the structures were collapsed or destroyed. Then he looked for signs of battle.
Dalinar had not been proven right yet. As Wetlander had pointed out, the Everstorm has not even fully circled the globe. Highstorms travel from East to West, Everstorms travel from West to East. So it went from the shattered plains, to Natanatan. to around the planet to shin, to iri, to azir, to jah keved, to FINALLY Alethkar. As of the end of Words of Radiance, some of the highprinces were moving to Urithiru to explore it. Not because they felt in danger by the storm. Sadeas was confident that he could sell that the whole stormform was a lie to the other highprinces, and that still leaves 6 other highprinces worth of lands that do not believe Dalinar.
Actually as stated in the book it does make sense that the Highprinces and other rich and influential people would have their entire families there. If you are not at the center, then you are out of the loop. The King and the rulers of all the lands of Alethkar are there. The Queen is just a regent keeping shop. You want a favorable deal for your family? You better be at the shattered plains to deal with Highprince blah blah in person. You want to do a trade deal with Azir? Well surprise surprise all the foreign dignitaries are at the shattered plains dealing with the King and the Highprinces. It is like how in Mistborn, a noble house wasn’t strong if you weren’t in Luthadel. You keep saying everyone should be freaking out and worried yet every single thing you say they should be worried about they don’t know yet. We are still at the start of the book.
Do you have quotes or evidence that supports the fused were not around during the False Desolation? Its says in the book Ba-Ado-Mishram found out how to provide voidlight. The only individuals we have seen employ voidlight is the fused. So why else would Ba-Ado-Mishram be providing voidlight? My theory is that in order to change forms as shown in Oathbringer, you need to open yourself up to the change, otherwise the fused cannot take up residence. I think during a highstorm, the listeners did not open themselves up, they rejected it, and used the cover from the storm to escape. By rejecting and giving up their form, they became dullform. The rest it seems we agree on. That by capturing Ba-Ado-Mishram, it tore away the connection or data jack, making them unable to adopt any more forms, and the everstorm restored that. My theory regarding Herdazians and Rock’s people is that when humans first came to Roshar, some interbred with the dawnsingers and over the centuries that accepted intermingling became so diluted that we got herdazians and rock’s people. It is then when the humans began taking away the land of the dawnsingers, and the dawnsingers allied themselves with Odium, is when Rock’s people became ostracized and as per their legends, they fled to the mountains.
@39 Evilmonkey
Exactly. The warcamps are literally described as cities onto themselves. All we get POV of regarding the Alethi are the main leaders.
Ok I think I replied to everything and everyone I wanted to. Thanks!
Lol thought I said everything but of course I think of something to add. Hell lets even give it to you Isilel. Lets do a thought experiment and say they do know the state of all these things, even when as per the book they do not. What possible military action could be taken that is better than the idea they came up with? As per the map of Roshar, Urithiru and the Shattered Plains are both huge leagues away from Kholinar. Any troops still in their homelands are untrained, and used for border skirmishes because anytime anyone of note rises up, they are sent off to the Shattered Plains. Travel from Alethkar to the Shattered Plains takes weeks at least by caravan. Armies move even slower. So basically you would have three options.
Option 1 Have the highprinces send whatever untrained peasantry in their lands to liberate Kholinar, which would leave the lands utterly vulnerable as well as trying to coordinate untrained groups from multiple princedoms that have never worked together, over miles and miles of land. And that is assuming you could get the highprinces to work together, which at this point in the story they do not believe Dalinar. So option 1 cannot work.
Option 2, mobilize the vast Alethi armies of all 10 highprinces and send them from the Shattered Plains (the closest spot to start from) to Kholinar. And when they get there in a month at least, Kholinar would have already fallen and the fused would have dug in, while Thayla would have been lost to the voidbringers since the Alethi troops were elsewhere. so option 2 cannot work.
Option 3, you send in a small group to infiltrate the city, open the oathgate, get a large force into the city to support the local forces and force the voidbringers out and away. Oh wait that is exactly what they did do.
@41 Braid_tug
Of course. I didn’t mean to imply that it was unique to that faith, but re-reading how I wrote it I can see that I did. Apologies to any if I caused offense.
Brandon does have a great gift for writing convincingly from many perspectives and I think that is one reason why he is so popular. It’s one thing I like about him at any rate. But as Alice and Lyndsey and many others have pointed out, he does draw upon experiences and stories from his own faith, although not exclusively so. But you can see things peek out here and thereand I personally am always interested to know about these little tidbits from any author that provide a glimpse into the world that shapes their imagination. The story I related is well known to Mormons, so I would be surprised if he wasn’t thinking about it even if he wasn’t directly drawing inspiration from that particular story. I thought it might be of interest to any on this forum who weren’t familiar with it since it seemed to add some interesting color to an event that people were discussing. Again, apologies for inferring that it was a uniquely Mormon experience.
Diving into a couple of questions here:
Re: Dalinar’s guards –
My big question has not been “Why do people feel exhausted after seeing the Stormfather?” It’s “Why are the guards the only ones who sag and looked exhausted?” I now have one potential, questionable possibility: Dalinar notes that this group is from Bridge Thirteen, since he’s assigned Bridge Four to other duties. At the end of the book, he loses Bridge Thirteen, too, “as Rial and his other bodyguards were all in Bridge Thirteen—and that whole crew had gone up as squires to Teft.” Could it be that the bodyguards reacted more strongly than the other people in attendance because they were already becoming attuned to the Cognitive Realm, and therefore feel the Stormfather’s presence more strongly? I don’t have any evidence that Teft has been specifically working with Bridge Thirteen at this point, so it’s not a very strongly-supported theory, but… it might be possible?
Now, about Kadash. Let me first quote the entire section from Chapter 76, noting that (as I pointed out above) it’s Kadash & his squad who were with Dalinar, carried the oil barrels, lit them, and rolled them down that passageway.
As others have said, it’s pretty certain that Kadash knew Evi, though we have no evidence of how friendly they might have been. We know she’d spent a lot of time with Dalinar in his various warmongerings during the last five or six years (right?), so he can hardly help having at least met her. I think the quoted passage strongly implies that, whatever else they may have done that day, it was the realization that he himself was directly part of killing Evi that destroyed Kadash. Sure, it was a more brutal attack than most they’d done in recent years, but that was partly due to the ambush Tanalan had laid for Dalinar, and Kadash had shown no hesitation to obey his orders, whether he liked them or not. It was the moment when he realized that the screams he’d heard had been Evi’s that Kadash vomited, and then left the army for the ardentia.
I think that for a lot of years, he was far more concerned with his own guilt than with Dalinar’s, and quite probably he assumed (correctly) that Dalinar crawled into the bottle to get away from his memories. What he doesn’t know, of course, is that Dalinar no longer knows what really happened – he only “remembers” the story that they spread. In that light, this particular conversation has interesting overtones. Dalinar vaguely remembers something about Rathalas and Kadash retching, and Kadash reminds him, “Do not forget that I was there. You are not infallible.” Poor Dalinar – he has no clue how he failed that day, or what Kadash meant. Yet.
Regarding attitudes toward the capital, I may be making some assumptions but I think the gist of my understanding is likely more correct than not:
Alethi authority is widely distributed. Each Highprince has his own lands that, until very recently, were essentially separate and independent from the others. Only Gavilar’s conquest has brought unity of a sort to this arrangement. Most of the army will not be drawn from Kholinar, but rather from the various lands and domains of the individual Highprinces. Most of the extended families of both soldiers and Highprinces will not be in Kholinar, but rather in the various lands and domains of the individual Highprinces. Kholinar is where the court was, but not where it is now (that being first the Shattered Plains and then Urithiru), and even if the court were still in Kholinar you’d only expect the immediate families of the Highprinces to reside there, for the simple reason that wives of rulers are needed to keep records, otherwise they would probably be in the home cities of their respective Highprinces too.
Really, the only portion of the army that ought to be much concerned at all with Kholinar is Dalinar’s own, given that he runs the Kholin Highprincedom and thus would draw his soldiers from the lands therein (including Kholinar itself). Even then, since most Alethi seem to travel with their immediate families (especially during the War of Reckoning, which took so long that they essentially built entirely new cities to live in while prosecuting it) for both practical reasons (wives necessary to keep records) and personal ones (spending years on end away from your family when there are perfectly viable living conditions on-site is foolish), it seems likely to me that only a portion of Dalinar’s own army would have any family at all in Kholinar and what family connections did exist were predominantly more distant ones (at the very least not immediate spouses and children of the soldiers, who would mostly be on the Shattered Plains).
Throw in the vague reports that were mostly going directly to Dalinar and probably weren’t widely available to the common soldiers and I think it is entirely reasonable that the bulk of the Highprinces and their armies were relatively unconcerned about Kholinar.
@33: They lied about the Rift. What Dalinar did was so horrific, Gavilar buried the affair. He made it “an accident”. The official records state Sadeas accidentally did it. Nowhere it is written Dalinar is responsible for ordering such a carnage. Very few people know the truth, so while people know the Rift was burned to the ground, only a handful know it was Dalinar’s call. Even Adolin doesn’t know the truth: he thinks it was Sadeas’s fault. When he speaks of it, he is still ripe with emotions. I personally wondered how much of his hate towards Sadeas came from thinking he is so vile he would destroy a city filled with innocent women/children to prove a point…
@38: I totally agree with everything you say. I however need to point out Kaladin does comment on Elhokar not having had much thoughts for his wife and son prior to them getting to Kholinar…
@39: The flashbacks stated Adolin was a special case… Dalinar was angry at Evi for bringing the kids into the warcamps, hence it is not common for the little ones to be there. Dalinar also states how irregular it was of him to allow Adolin to take part into their counsel and to have him around in the warcamp. Adolin also hints, back in WoR, his upbringing has not been exactly standard. I wouldn’t take him as a “normal case”. He was nearly 13 when he finally got to be trained by an Ardent whereas it is customary to put children into tutelage at the age of 10 or 11.
I believe it is stated in WoK some people have brought their families to the Shattered Plains, but not everyone. Ruthar is said to have several sons, but only Relis is seen with him. Ialai’s nephew was back home and not on the Plains despite being the heir. I say Isilel is right: many people must have had families back home. They lack of worry is very odd.
@42: I personally do not think the narrative we have read allow us to conclude Dalinar did love Evi, but I feel it allows us to conclude there are strong chances he didn’t. Even before the Rift, he was annoyed with her. The fact he is trying to be a better husband does not imply love, it just implies Dalinar was enough of a man to see he was making her miserable and thus attempted to do better. Love however is not something I have read within any line nor segment of OB. I think it is also worth mentioning how Dalinar, when he starts remembering his wife, is first surprised not to remember loving her because he assumed he must have, but truth most likely is he didn’t.
@47 Gepeto
Myself, Evil Monkey, Wetlander, and Porphyrogenitus all pointed out that the immediate family is out by the shattered plains. Dalinar’s men have their families at the shattered plains. It is specifically stated in the books. Ialai and Sadeas were at the shattered plains. They had not named their nephew their heir till Oathbringer and again the nephew is not immediate family. Regardless this does not matter because as Porphyrogenitus eloquently put, the only ones army that should be concerns is Dalinar’s and as I have so eloquently put (lol), the reports are conflicting. Again the characters have next to no information. Not sure how many more different ways it has to be quoted from the book to show that. At this point in the book, any further reaction would not make sense. The reactions we do see in the book make perfect sense
To quote you “Love however is not something I have read within any line nor segment of OB”. Here is a quote from Oathbringer. I do not have much time today but I will add more tomorrow, but here is already one:
“With that pale hair and light golden skin, she was like a glowing gemstone. She was a sweet, loving woman who deserved better than the treatment he gave her”
That does not sound like the description a man who has no feelings whatsoever for a woman would think to himself. Yet that was all Dalinar thinking on Evi. I should have more either later this weekend or next week
Regarding the map of Alethkar posted in the article, it is interesting that Hearthstone is marked in handwriting with the note “annotated for your convenience.” I assume this is Nazh’s writing. Why is this important enough to note? I find it odd that worldhoppers would care where Kaladin grew up, or where his family lives. I suppose they are researching the KRs’ backgrounds, but why?
I agree with Isilel that the Alethi in Urithiru seem somewhat unconcerned about the situation back home. At the very least, by the time of this chapter, they know the Everstorm is about to roll through the country. None of the structures are built to withstand a storm from the West. The entire country could be devastated: cities and towns wiped out, the unsuspecting population caught unaware and many lives lost. I know there isn’t much they can do quickly — they don’t have mass systems of communication or any way to transport large numbers of people and supplies — but it seems like there would be more concern or discussion about how to handle the aftermath of such a devastating storm. It’s like a hurricane in our modern world moving toward a populated area. It is the responsibility of the community leaders to send out warnings, oversee preparations, and help the population with healthcare, supplies, clean up afterwards. We don’t see much of this at all in Oathbringer. I know there are a lot of extenuating circumstances, but some discussion of how to warn or help the general population would seem expected.
@48: It is never explicitly stated all known family of every single living individual is onto the Shattered Plains: you are taking a handful of quotes out of proportion and you are making them say what you want. All of Bridge 4, except Lopen, having family seems to have them back home. Elhokar, Ruthar, Sadeas, at the very least, have family left at home and yes I do count the nephew who likely wasn’t name heir on the day Torol died. He had no children: he must have named a heir a long time ago and yes, for most people, nephews are considered closed-family. Jasnah/Renarin are considered close family and they are cousins. Navani considers Adolin/Renarin as close family and they are her nephews. Hence, I have just provided you with three examples of high ranked individuals having close family back home: surely there are others, but we weren’t exactly privy to the private life to every single Highprince and Brightlord.
Even if it you were right, the lack of interest of Alethi towards their homeland is really baffling. It is their homeland, they have lands, properties, towns, soldiers and civilians left back home. The lack of interest the book is suggesting is puzzling or it may be they do care, but the author chose not to show it to us. Either way, I do agree with Isilel on the matter.
As for Evi, Dalinar stated he found her beautiful and his body desired her, but he explicitly stated not remembering ever feeling love for her. Once she is dead, he does not mourn her, he does not miss her presence nor her person, but he is ashamed at how she died. He says as much during on of his flashbacks when he thinks Gavilar is wrong to think he misses Evi, he wanted her gone, just not this way. He feels she deserved better than him, but him thinking it absolutely does not mean love. So again, the narrative isn’t really allowing us to conclude Dalinar loved, like really loved, like Navani-love, Evi. It doesn’t allow us to conclude he never felt anything for her either, but my personal interpretation of the narrative is Dalinar never felt very strong feelings towards his wife. He did not love her, but he did not wish her dead either. He did not necessarily hate her, but he preferred when she wasn’t around.
Of course, other readers may have a different interpretation, but I personally do not find OB has outlay the ground basis for a true love story in between Dalinar/Evi. Instead, I found he gave us an arranged wedding which turned out being miserable and unhappy as opposed to working out as Brandon has done in the past.
@49: I found it odd Dalinar was so intend on helping other countries, warning them but, at the same time, no being really pro-active into doing anything for his people left back home. Rescuing Kholinar was Elhokar’s idea and, apart from him, only Adolin expressed concern for his hometown.
It may just be necessary for the narrative to unfold, but I found it odd too. Hopefully, Brandon will give us more details within book 4.
Gepeto @50 said. “Jasnah/Renarin are considered close family and they are cousins. Navani considers Adolin/Renarin as close family and they are her nephews.”
After Chapter 4, Jasnah and Renarin are not only cousins, they are step brother and sister. Navani now really has a reason to consider Adolin and Renarin as close family since they are now her step-sons. Let’s not even consider what the family terminology that would have to be used if (as some has suggested could happen after the events of OB), Shallan and Adolin adopt Gavinor as their child or Jasnah adopts Gavinor as her son. Genealogists would shudder if they had to map out the Kholin family tree post OB.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Note: I edited the last sentence to say Jasnah adpots Gavinor rather than Navani. Thank you Braid_Tug @60.
To many RE: Evi and Dalinar – Personally, I think their whole story has not been fully told. I believe there will be more about them in Book 4. I am making this prediction based on what happened in TWoK, WoR and OB. We see flashbacks of Kaladin and Shallan though their stories were the focus on Books 1 & 2. And since, this is an ongoing story, it will not be surprising if Brandon gives more background info on Dalinar and Evi’s relationship.
That said, here are the ones we already know:
1. Navani was jealous of Evi. She looked down at Evi. Thinks that she is not good enough for anything. But, Navani is jealous because Evi is married to Dalinar and from Navani’s point of view, Dalinar loves Evi. And this was happening when Evi was still alive.
From that, I am going to infer that Dalinar loved Evi at some point in time.
2. Dalinar pursued Evi for at least 2 years according to either TWoK or WoR. Even if Gavilar only ordered him to “marry her” for the plate, it is very hard to pretend for two years that he is doing it simply because Dalinar was ordered to do it. He has to at least find Evi attractive for Dalinar to continue pursuing her, plate or not.
Evi’s brother just wants to make sure they are protected. Evi can be married off to any high ranking warrior and still get the protection. Dalinar was just convenient because he is unmarried.
3. This is speculation – I think Gavilar was aware that Dalinar was lusting for his wife. Gavilar was not stupid. He was very astute. Marrying off Dalinar to Evi shoots two birds in one stone. It made sure that Dalinar became unavailable to Navani and ensured that there was a new shard in the Kholin arsenal.
There are some more small things that made me think that Dalinar loved Evi. But I can’t think of them right now.
Just my thoughts.
Is it really all that important what Dalinar’s feelings for Evi were? It doesn’t seem so to me. If we want to establish that pre-Nightwatcher Dalinar was a dick, I think there are much more convincing evidence of that than whether or not he loved his first wife, an arranged marriage victim.
As to the lack of concern for the homeland I just chalk it up to what I said before. Alethi are conquerors who care more about their current pursuits than holding on to what they have. Public outreach and noblise oblige are modern concepts in our world and don’t necessarily apply to our Alethi warlords. In short, all evidence points to them not really giving a damn about their smallfolk. Not abject cruelty, just indifference. To add to that, soulcasting food means they don’t have to depend on food shipments. All they require from vassals is tax revenue and they are making a killing already thanks to gem harvesting. Eventually they will feel the crush but not yet.
I think it needs stating that at this point the populace of Urithiru is only nine days out from the battle on the Shattered Plains and the Everstorm that about wiped them out. They have been displaced to a totally foreign, sterile environment and are just starting to come to grips with the logistics of their continued survival. Any concern they had for family was probably centered on those left behind in the Shattered Plains. Deep inside the tower, most of the people are likely unaware of current passing of the Everstorm. The news of riots in Kholinar and the outage of span reads is new information and probably limited to the ruling elite who themselves are having to face The End of The World. That being said, I’d find it highly unlikely that there would be much concern over what is going on in Alethkar.
For what it’s worth, I think Dalinar came to love Evi, but probably never fell in love with her. But, I don’t see this as something I should care about.
#53 and #54 – plotwise, whether Dalinar loved Evi or not is not important at this point in time. But for the tone of OB which is about forgiveness, I believe it is important to many readers, Including myself, to at least have a glimmer of hope that Dalinar loved Evi and stopped lusting for his brother’s wife at that point in time so that we as readers can forgive Dalinar for being a dick as you said.
Readers are as much a part of the storytelling as a writer creates his yarn. If readers can not identify or forgive a character then or worse, stop caring for that character, specially one of the most importantl ones like Dalinar, then the story fails.
Case in point – 50 Shades of Grey was poorly written. I don’t know how it passed the editors. That it was groundbreaking for an erotica book is a given. That three movies were made from the series and they earned a billion dollars mean that the audience cared what happens to Christian and Anastasia. The films were Rated R not X. So we can assume that there were not enough sex scenes in there to be censored, so, it was not thesex but the story which made people pay $15 a pop to see it in theaters and buy or download the movie.
Back to OB – if Dalinar continued to lust for Navani while he was married to Evi, it meant he was a total dick. Some would even say he was cheating on his wife and his brother. If that is th case, then dalinar’s character will be irredeemable to many.
Just my thoughts
Sheiglagh @55. I do not agree that if a person lusts for somebody who is not his/her spouse that person is ipso facto a total dick. As long the person does not act on his lust, then I do not see the problem. I may think that some actress or model (or even a friend) is gorgeous, even though I am married. Likewise, my wife can think her male friend is hotter than I am. What is the problem if neither one of us does not act upon our infatuation with somebody who is not our spouse. Dalinar may have been a dick because of how he treated Evi. But that is complete and separate from how he thought about Navani.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I’m surprised that the discussion on the elevators and the workings of Urithiru did not include the little thing at the start of the chapter. Dalinar steps out on the balcony and his ears pop. Later in the chapter we learn that there is no door to the balcony. All they have is a heavy curtain. So there is some kind of artificial air pressure that stops when you walk on the balcony. I think later on in the books the atmospheric pressure in Urithiru is also mentioned but here is the first evidence. This must be something magical. I don’t believe it can be done by any mundane method.
This is my first reread od Oathbringer, but I am shocked how different this chapter reads from the first time, knowing what we know now.
I know I don’t post much, but I have been following the reread since halfway Wok.
For what it’s worth, I personally believe that Dalinar grew to love Evi but loved her more when she was gone. When I see how he treats his sons, I look at it as a wounded animal lashing out. Grief often takes the form of hurting those close to you. To fostall arguments I acknowledge that my viewing of those scenes may not match others opinions. It’s just my 2 pennies.
What I will say is when I contemplate Dalinar’s redemption potential, his coldness towards a woman he was forced to marry while longing for his brother’s wife seems a bit far down the list considering that he was an atrocity machine. I mean, I know that quite a few of us (me not included) thought that it was an even chance that he killed a kid and his mother for a Shardblade. That’s a despicable dude.
I have discussed my difficulties with Dalinar and Evi in previous chapters, but I have to agree with sheiglagh that I don’t think we have seen their whole story. I also do think he loved her, at least in some way. People tend to define love as being passionate, but that is not all there is to love. There is also the day to day love, the way we choose to show love to others. I don’t think every couple feels intense passionate love for one another every day, but we still choose to show our spouses love with our actions – making a pot of coffee even though only the spouse drinks coffee, making the bed even though we may not care about a made bed, etc. In Dalinar’s case, he made a conscious choice to first seek a more peaceful solution at the Rift, and I believe that choice was made to SHOW Evi love. Whether he “felt” love (in the passionate sense) or not, I don’t know and don’t believe the narrative really shows us enough to determine it. He certainly seemed to feel affection for her at the time of Adolin’s birth. It is difficult to say from what we have exactly what he felt, but I do think we see Evi choosing to love Dalinar with her actions throughout the flashbacks, and we see Dalinar make the same choice at the beginning of the Rift scene. For me, this makes what happens all the more tragic.
And to answer EvilMonkey – it is important to me how Dalinar felt for Evi. It may not seem logical, but it feels very important to the story to me. Perhaps it is because we spent thousands of pages only knowing her as shshsh and imagining that she and Dalinar had had this great love that caused him to seek the Nightwatcher to heal his pain. It was a shocking revelation to see that that was not necessarily the case, and I just naturally tend to root for marriages to work out. Also, I think it gives valuable insight into the background of Adolin and Renarin in addition to Dalinar.
@Andrew: I’m confused by those who think Navani needs to adopt Gavinor. He’s her Grandson already. No adoption needed. She is already his guardian. I do hope we see more of him in book 4, with signs that the poor kid has been getting the love he needs. Or maybe Jasnah is, since he’s still the heir.
Same with Adolin & Shallan. They are newly married yes. She’s also learning to be a Radiant and stabilize herself again. They can be Gavinor’s loving aunt and uncle, without becoming his parent stand-inhair.
Honestly, I don’t want them to have a baby until the break after book 5. I don’t want a baby or a lack of baby to be a plot point. But some of this comes from my irration at people. I was married 4 years before we had a kid. Yet the “when are you having a baby” questions started… at the engagement party.
@55, sheiglagh:
Seriously? We know Dalinar murdered thousands of innocent civilians because he was angry at their lord, who they didn’t pick and had no choice about. But the irredeemable crime would be feeling attraction to someone else’s wife? Wow, your morality makes zero sense to me.
The Stormlight Archive is clearly about redemption in various aspects. Dalinar, Adolin, Jasnah, and Shallan are all murderers, in very different ways. Kaladin came within a millimeter of allowing Elhokar’s murder, and feels responsible for his brother’s (and many other) deaths. Renarin is bonded to an Odium-spren and feels that it renders him evil or at least, well, odious. The whole point of the story is forgiveness and redemption! And the thing you believe can’t be or shouldn’t be forgiven is feeling attraction to someone else’s spouse?
Dalinar’s guards, that’s just the rule of cool people.
But let’s not overlook the simplist explanation, arthritis.
That’s one heck of a pressure differential that occurred in a matter of seconds. And the poor guys probably have really poor joint health. Who wouldn’t? Hauling that bridge around and then pulling gaurd duty for days on end. That’s not a recipe for healthy cartilage :)
Braid_Tug @60. I meant to say that Jasnah adopted Gavinor (not Navani). I made the edit in my post above. Thank you for pointing out that error. I think it is a good idea for Jasnah to adopt Gavinor due to dynastic reasons. As Elhokar’s son, Gavinor is the rightful heir to the throne. However, he is not of age. Gavinor cannot rule outright. The powers that be (basically, the Kholin family) decided that Jasnah was best person to rule. If in the future, Jasnah has a child of her own, then their could be a dynastic conflict as to who is heir to the throne: Gavinor (as the son of the former king and the person who would have become king if he was of age); or Jasnah’s first born (the first born of the current reigning monarch.
(Note, she would be next in line had Alethi permitted women to sit on the throne. As the sibling of Elhokar, she would be closer in line to the throne than Adolin, Elhokar’s cousin. Unfortunately for Jasnah, – for purposes of the right to assume the throne (before Shallan’s suggestion) – she is a female.)
I have seen some theories suggest that if Shallan and Adolin would raise Gavinor (as opposed to Navani and Dalinar, who would be Gavinor’s grandmother and step-grandfather), they should adopt Gavinor. If for whatever reason Adolin and Shallan do raise Gavinor, I do not think that dynastic reasons justify such an adoption.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@51: Navani considers Adolin/Renarin as close relationships years prior to her marrying Dalinar. Adolin states she and Jasnah did have a hand in raising him. Jasnah never seemed to think her cousins were distant relatives. It is also obvious Dalinar doesn’t think of Jasnah as a distant relative. Dalinar’s wedding to Navani is not the element which made the family closer: there were close from the start.
Nephews and nieces aren’t far-away relatives.
Is Dalinar loving Evi important?
On a narrative point of view, no it isn’t. Dalinar loving Evi is not really what matters into the overall narrative, but it does matter to some readers. I personally feel Brandon purposefully left this segment of the narrative open enough to allow his readers to reach the conclusions they need to make the story flow better for them.
Here is an extract of the original Dalinar’s flashback, the one published into Unfettered II.
This was edited out of the final version of the textual. Why? I suspect writing out in plain letters Dalinar never loved Evi, worst he even hated her, was too much for some readers, so it was left more open. Brandon allowed the readers to have a glimmer of hope there was some love into the pairing, but I personally do not believe Dalinar ever loved her. I think he grew to be fine with her up until he got annoyed with her. I think he never missed her, but he clearly saw her as someone “good” who clearly deserved a better husband. He however never had strong feelings for her.
Did he lust Navani during all of those years? I think so. The narrative doesn’t explicitly state it, but Dalinar purposefully tried to stay away from Navani. I suspect it was to avoid lusting too much over her.
As I said earlier, I do not think the narrative allows us to conclude either way: I think readers can conclude in whichever ways feel natural for them. My take is Dalinar/Evi was a failure as a marriage. She was utterly miserable and unhappy in it while Dalinar was utterly miserable and unhappy to be married to her. They never clicked, they never had any complicity.
I also suspect Dalinar never really loved his sons, but this may be a topic for another day.
On who should adopt Gavinor
I quite frankly do not see why it should be Jasnah of all people. Clearly, she has no interest into children and she is a single woman whereas it is clear a young boy needs a father figure. Who can this be? Dalinar? Navani? They are old. They have another focus. I always found Adolin/Shallan were a much better pick given they are young
Should Adolin/Shallan have a child?
Why not? I am personally all for a baby being born before the fifth book. Parenthood is so seldom broached as a topic within fantasy, I’d love if those two could have a baby.
I seem to remember that Dalinar agreed to marrying Evi out of his fear of himself…this was after the Thrill nearly drove him to kill Gavilar and grab everything he ever desired, including Navani. Am I remembering correctly? He told himself he could not ever be king, and he swore to do whatever Gavilar commanded from then on, including marrying Evi, no questions asked. He chose to subject himself to a loveless marriage rather than let the Thrill consume him. From that standpoint, its logical that Dalinar never loved Evi, at least not nearly in the way he loves Navani – although it seems he made an effort to appease her.
Related – how much leeway are we giving Dalinar for being a despicable person pre-Nightcrawler, when we know he was being groomed by Odium via the Thrill since he was a teenager? Talk about someone having a bad influence on your life. In that sense, and because Dalinar managed to refuse Odium, I think Dalinar’s actions are completely redeemable.
@49 Artemis: that IS interesting! Could there be someone else in Hearthstone they are interested in?
By the time I get to these rereads, there are so many comments to read that it takes me a day to read those too!
Regarding Dalinar and Evi, I am more with Gepeto on this one. I don’t think Dalinar bore Evi any ill will, and he could recognize, objectively, that she was a good person and doing her best to be an Alethi wife – but I don’t think he loved/connected with her in the normal manner of spouses. He certainly wanted to do well by her, perhaps had glimmers of affection for her – and perhaps, had things at the Rift turned out differently, that COULD have matured into love. But at the time of her death I don’t think he was there yet, even if her influence made him want to be somebody more worthy of her.
But in truth, I think a lot of his grief was over the fact that he accidentally killed her (although I feel like the deaths of all the other innocents in that city are no less monstrous) and his downward spiral was due to that, but since the Alethi didn’t know what truly happened, they assumed it was grief for his wife.
#61 Carl –
SERIOUSLY? The flashbacks already paint Dalinar as a warlord who had killed so many people. We already find it horrible. And it is hard to forgive Dalinar for what he did. Yet, if he has one quality that we find redeemable, then we can forgive him. I don’t want to write a wall of text but I will just remind you of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Since we are talking of a smaller scale, think of Dalinar loving his wife as the saving grace that will make Dalinar redeemable. It is not about morality. It is about finding something good about someone.
As for Sodom and Gomorrah, as the we know from the Bible, Lot and his family were spared but his wife looked back and she was turned into a pillar of salt.
#56 Andrew HB
I should have used the word “COVET” as in Though shall not covet thy neighbor’s wife. But, I didn’t want it to sound like the 10 Commandments since we were not talking about the Judeo-Christian religion.
That said, since we are of this world and I am from the world of Judeo-Christian religion, it is hard for me not to think of the Bible.
As for liking a celebrity, I can honestly tell you that my celebrity crush is Brad Pitt and my husband’s celebrity crush is Jennifer Morrison. We both find it hilarious. But, as you know, it is actually harmless because it is not “covetous”.
The case with Dalinar and Navani was different. Dalinar coveted Navani. And if Dalinar still felt the same way even after Gavilar and Navani got married, then he is committing a sin.
Then again, this is based on the strict code of the Judeo-Christian religion which I presume not all of us here in this forum adhere to.
I don’t want to continue discussing this because of the religious aspect that I’m including. So, I will just end it here. :-) I really don’t like discussing religion and I don’t want to offend anyone who has a different set of beliefs
@67: Yes. This was very eloquently said. I think there is a parallel universe into which Dalinar could have come to love Evi enough to make their relationship a happier one, but he never reached this point at the time of her death. I also find Evi probably morphed into the symbol of the innocent victims he killed at the Rift, the reminder of those he slaughtered, those who didn’t deserve it. She was the eye-opener, but he needed not loving her for this to happen.
I however also believe the narrative is allowing readers to conclude he loved her, in his own ways, though I do not personally believe he did.
On the side note, I do think Dalinar lusting after Navani is not a crime… This isn’t even something I find I can fault him with.
Carl @61 – Stop and take a deep breath. You can disagree with someone’s opinion or reaction without disparaging the person or their morals. Thank you.
—
Re: Evi – I personally believe that Dalinar did love her, as well as he was capable of loving someone he understood so little, and as well as he could at that time in his life. His thoughts at the end of Chapter 36, “Hero,” convince me that her opinion of him mattered to him – and that it mattered in a way that indicates that he loved her. He didn’t understand her, and therefore was often frustrated with her; just as often, he was frustrated at a deeper level because he felt he could never live up to her image of him. Even so, he did love her; just … not very well.
Re: concern for Alethkar – As others have pointed out, things are pretty chaotic for the folks in Urithiru. Their lives have been upended, and they have plenty to distract them from even thinking about this Everstorm thing. On top of that, they know very little about the storm. Most of them didn’t see it, and may well be inclined to think that those who did see it are exaggerating. (Rival princedoms and all that, you know.)
If they all knew what we know, even at this stage of the book, they would likely be concerned for property as well as friends and extended family – but they don’t know. Even those who support Dalinar aren’t 100% convinced that it’s going to be a big issue. To truly be a major concern as a storm, the Everstorm would have to be continent-deep (like the highstorm) and would have to circle the globe (like the highstorm) and maintain its ferocity all the way (which doesn’t even happen with highstorms). In all their experience and history, the highstorm is unique; no other kind of storm has ever happened that came anywhere close to it. So it’s got to be hard for your average Joe to believe it’s really going to happen. (After all, they don’t know it’s an important plot point.) As for turning the parshmen into Voidbringers, that’s even more far-fetched.
I would expect that there are some who are worried about their homeland, but I’d bet that most of them simply don’t have enough (reliable) information to draw their attention away from their own immediate issues. Dalinar is worried, but he’s worried about the whole world. Should he be more focused on Alethkar? That’s always going to be a matter of opinion. It makes sense that he’s not terribly worried about Kholinar itself, though, other than vague reports of rioting and the lack of communication from the queen. The city, with its windblades and its wall, is structured to withstand a storm from the west nearly as well as one from the east.
I was going to reply to a bunch of posts but Wetlandernw pretty much said every single thing I was going to say. At this stage in the book they don’t have the information that people are saying they should react to. They simply don’t know. Regarding Dalinar loving Evi, I will repeat what I have said before but clarify it. I believe Dalinar came to love Evi in his own way. It started very slowly and built. The tragedy is Dalinar only realized how much he loved her after she died. Does him loving her mean he treated her well? Storms no! Does him loving her mean their relationship was great? Not at all! All it means is he did come to love her, and her death cut that much deeper when he felt it was at his own hand. His feelings for her were not purely physical. To continue that quote I brought up before, and Wetlandernw and Gepeto both referred to, there is more:
“He turned and caught sight of Evi. She was beaming at him, though he’d have expected her to be indignant at the idea of more wars. Instead, she stepped up to him and took his arm. “You spared the child.” “I…. He could barely lift the Blade. I gave him to his mother, and told her to hide him.” “Oh, Dalinar.” She pulled him close. He felt a swelling of pride. Ridiculous, of course. He had endangered the kingdom – how would people react if they knew the Blackthorn himself had broken before a crisis of conscience. They’d laugh. In that moment, he didn’t care. So long as he could be a hero to this woman“
So again, that does not sound like a man who has no feelings for that woman, or only is attracted to her body. He didn’t care what anyone thought as long as she could look at him like that. With pride and love. That is why he tried to spare the Rift. For her.
@Gepeto Unfettered II is not canon as the flashbacks in there are the flash backs in Oathbringer. Oathbringer is canon. The above quote is from Oathbringer. Whatever could be theorized is the reason the quote you references was removed (it could be for instance Brandon decided he did want Dalianr to love Evi) is mute as the final product is in Oathbringer, so that is what is being referred to.
As to being worried about relatives. Jasnah and Navani are at Urithiru. The Sadeas heir apparent is at their estates which is not located in Kholinar. Quote below:
“I’m not here for your plans, Dalinar” Ialai said ” I’m here because it was a convenient place to find you all together. I’ve been in conference with my advisors back at our estates, and the consensus is that the heir, my nephew, is too young.
So the only people of any import to the main cast whose POV we get are Aesudan, and Gavinor. Of which at this point in the book there is little to conflicting information regarding. The highprinces back at the shattered plains where the everstorm has not hit yet are not listening to Dalinar, nor are even the nations that have been hit. So again, there is no chance to react in the way people are indicating, there is no information to react to in the way people are indicated, and there is nothing that can be done that isn’t already being done in the way people are indicated based on what is known at this time. You simply cannot react to things that you do not know exist.
I’ll just pop in to add my $0.02 on Dalinar and Evi:
When he first saw her, he seemed to be drawn to her, assuming my memory isn’t faulty, even though he was still very much hung up on Navani. As their relationship grew, he clearly admired her and wanted to garner her good favor. He even began shaping his own behavior in an effort to become the man that she saw that he could be. If that isn’t love of some kind then I don’t know what is.
@71: As I said, the narrative doesn’t allow us to conclude Dalinar loved Evi. Some believe he must, others do not. I personally find there are more indications he didn’t really love her than the opposite. The former flashback may not be canon, but this was Brandon’s original draft. We do know he changed some of the flashbacks to make Dalinar more sympathetic: this could be an instance of a narrative he tweaked for this reason. Also, this flashback was actually released into paper format: I treat it as much more than “nothing”. It is an indication of what Brandon intended for Dalinar’s character. Among the things he tweaked within those flashbacks, there was the timeline (which is still messed up all through the flashbacks) and this.
My personal thoughts are Brandon never intended for Dalinar to have loved Evi, but outright saying it was too harsh within the final narrative, hence he removed those references, allowing the readers to reach their own conclusions. Writing a character such Dalinar must have been an endeavor as the risk to alienate him from the readership was very strong. Hence, there are no proofs Dalinar loved Evi, there are no proofs he really hated her: there are segments which readers will interpret in various ways, all being right, all being wrong. I interpret them as Dalinar never having loved Evi because my understanding of his character is he does not easily love: he can’t love, in most cases.
Also, am I the only one who find the bold letters to be needlessly aggressive? It may not be the intentions, but really they make me feel as of you are yelling each time I read your post…
@74 Gepeto
The statements I read in your post are contradictory, as shown below:
“As I said, the narrative doesn’t allow us to conclude Dalinar loved Evi”
“there are segments which readers will interpret in various ways, all being right, all being wrong“
So first you state there are no other conclusions possible other than Dalinar doesn’t love Evi. Then you state in your opinion it can be interpreted either way.
You told me twice now there is no possible way love for Evi could be read in the book. I showed two examples from the book that as I said read to me as Dalinar loving Evi in his own way. There is also the scene at the Rift as well as the scene later with Renarin. Those also read to me as Dalinar loving Evi. The scene where Dalinar seeks the Nightwatcher to ask forgiveness. That reads as love to me. And finally the scene where he is forgiven with tears in his eyes seeking to be the man Evi knew he could be, also reads as love to me. In my opinion, based on the narrative.
Unfettered 2 showed four flashbacks of Dalinar prior to Oathbringers release. As Oathbringer is the final cut of those four scenes, then Oathbringer is canon. Unless Brandon changes the scenes like he did in Words of Radiance, how those four scenes played out in Oathbringer, not Unfettered 2, is canon.
@75: I have abundantly made it extraordinarily clear it was my personal interpretation.
I do not believe Dalinar loved Evi.
But I have also said other readers could reach another conclusion because Brandon left this particular plot point open enough for both interpretation to co-exits. Nothing I have said contradicts itself. I don’t know how I could be clearer.
And please, enough with the bold letters.
@Lots of people arguing about Dalinar’s feelings for Evi
I think it’s important to remember that love is not just an emotion. Love is a choice.
Dalinar spent years choosing the Thrill over his wife and family. He decided that the feelings he had for Evi and the relationship they had together was less important than his addiction to war.
Evi dies as a direct result of that choice. Dalinar gave into his anger, ignored his wife’s pleas, and decided to murder an entire city. His wife was just one of his many victims.
Loving Evi in a meaningful way would have meant being willing to change and mature as a person so that he could be the husband and father he needed to be. Instead, he did what he wanted to do, killed his wife along with an entire city, and then descended into alcoholism and neglecting his children.
Old Dalinar sometimes means well. He generally chooses badly.
Gaz @@@@@65. As a fan of Marvel comics, I think if there is any fictional character who could have an in-depth conversation with Dalinar about forgiveness, it is Nightcrawler. But unless Professor Xavier is present, Dalinar would still remember what he did at the Rift. :)
Gepeto @@@@@ several. I am on Scath’s side. I do not think using quotes from scenes in Unfettered II which Brandon did not include in OB to support your position is persuasive. Brandon has stated that the scenes in UII represent a draft. It was always subject to change. One would not use scenes in WoK Prime to make a point about Elhokar’s personality. The Elhokar is WoK Prime is a different than Elhokar in SA. But to each his/her own, I guess.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Those who think the Alethi don’t react enough to the problems in their homeland probably think of the whole book, not just the part where we are now in the reread. Later people do get more information, and Shallan’s excursions as Veil would be the perfect time to show the worries of the common people. The officers often bring their wives, but common soldiers should have family back home, and nobles also must have someone looking after their lands back home.
I also think the constant bold text is annoying.
@76 Gepeto
I disagree that you have made it extraordinary clear it was your personal interpretation, but I will not pursue that line as that would be a personal attack on you and not your arguments. I strive to remain with the Moderation Policy as indicated.
I have stated my own opinion that I feel the quotes that Dalinar loved Evi so much by other Alethi was due to their culture of not showing public displays of emotion. However it is also my opinion based on the quotes I provided that Dalinar came to love Evi in his own way. It was not a healthy love. It was not a nourishing nor supportive love, but it was a love he was capable of despite his addiction to the Thrill and alcohol. It does not excuse how he treated Evi, nor does it absolve him of her death. I felt I read the love that was intended to make us see how her loss cut him so deeply. To show us why he fled to the bottle of a bottle. To show us why he sought the Nightwatcher for forgiveness. Does this mean Dalinar is worthy of redemption? Does it wipe away his past actions? I honestly don’t know and that is not what I am commenting on. All I am commenting on is the scenes that have caused me to read that Dalinar did love Evi in her own way and resulted to me as a deeper understanding of Dalinar and a greater appreciation for his journey for redemption. I do not think there is anything wrong with that.
@77 dptullos
I think what caused a lot of the arguing over Dalinar’s feelings for Evi is there can be a lot of personal interpretations on what love means to a person. As per your post you feel love is a choice. Choosing the person over the vice. That is a perfectly valid view that I respect. It is a pure view of love. I personally feel it is a form of love. It is a love we should aspire to. A love of a healthy and happy relationship. A love I feel I enjoy with my wife. Each day choosing to love each other and move forward as partners in this world. This form of love I agree in my opinion Dalinar does not show at first. You are right he does chose the thrill and alcohol in the beginning over Evi. However in time he begins to chose Evi over the Thrill. It is brief. In fact we only see it once at the Rift. It unfortunately for all did not play out well in the end. But I feel as I stated above, Dalinar loved Evi in his own way. Not a healthy way. He was conflicted between the man he felt he was and the man Evi saw he could be. But I do feel in my opinion love can be read in that. The reason I feel that way is it causes me to see the emotions shown by Dalinar during those moments and later in the book stronger.
@78 AndrewHB
Thank you
@79 birgit
So why do I refer to the whole book regarding Dalinar loving Evi, but only refer to up to this point in the book when discussing reactions? Because it had been stated that Dalinar loving Evi could not be read anywhere in Oathbringer. Because it has been stated it did not make sense for there to be no reactions to Kholinar in this chapter. So I responded in my opinion where I feel I read love from Dalinar. I responded in my opinion based on the information from the book, what sort of information the characters had to act on at this point in the chapter. If people would like to discuss whether or not Dalinar loved Evi at this point in the book, my answer would be different. If people wanted to discuss about a lack of reaction of the Alethi in the chapter where they find out Kholinar fell, my answer would be different (I still feel the reactions were merited, but for different reasons). I am allowed to disagree with other posters. I am also allowed to provide references to back up my opinions. And finally as per the Moderation Guildlines I am allowed to bold portions of my posts if I feel it calls attention to the points I am making. The bolding is not meant to be yelling. As per the very choices I make when I bold indicate I am not yelling as it would sound very odd indeed if I was speaking in real life normally and then suddenly shout “in this chapter!” at the end of a sentence as I have in this very paragraph. My bolding has not been inflammatory, nor instigatory. So I will continue to bold to call attention to specific points I make during my posts. Thank you.
“My bolding has not been inflammatory, nor instigatory.” This is correct. it is, however, counterproductive, in that it is so overused that it fails to emphasize anything–it just makes your text hard to read. IMO.
@81 Carl
I respect your opinion, but I disagree and as long as my bolding continues to not be inflammatory nor instigatory, I will continue to do so. Thank you for your input on my posts.
Scath @several – Dude, you need to create an account! :D On the whole, I agree with you, as per most of both your and my posts.
@many – ALL CAPS is considered shouting, and may in some situations be warranted. BOLD ALL CAPS… well, sometimes you feel REALLY strongly about something and need to shout even louder. When you don’t need to SHOUT, you use underlining, bolding, or italics — all acceptable ways of emphasizing a point. It’s even acceptable to combine them! You may personally feel that emphasizing too many things reduces the impact of an argument, or is visually annoying, but y’all are going to have to live with it. We are all trying to express ourselves as well as we can, and emphasis is part of that.
Also, it’s a time-honored tradition to use bold lettering within a quote to emphasize the portion of the quote that is most relevant to the point being made. Especially in Sanderson’s works, where italics are used frequently for in-text emphasis, bold is a better way of identifying that “the emphasis is mine” rather than part of the quotation.
Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion, emphasis and all…
@83 Wetlandernw
Thank you for your understanding. All signed up! :)
Re: Dalinar & Evi… Correct me if I’m wrong, but if I understand Gepeto correctly, the point is that we are not required to conclude that Dalinar truly loved Evi. Aside from our own understanding & definition of what “love” means, there are different ways of seeing Dalinar’s behavior. Some of us will see it and believe that, however inadequately, he did love her; others will see it and believe that he only cared what she thought when it was convenient to do so, or other variations thereof.
Is that correct?
@78: Unfettered II and WoK Prime cannot be compared. WoK Prime was an entirely different story where our characters are barely recognizable. Unfettered II has the first four flashbacks being released, within their integral form, except for one or two sentences which were changed.
I personally find it is significant Brandon chose to change this one sentence and I thought it was relevant to the current conversation.
@80: Good. I do not wish to further engage conversation with you either. You have constantly quoted me out of context, you have given me intentions which never were mine and you have ignored every single time I tried to precise my thoughts. It isn’t even a matter of having opposite opinions, this is a matter of respect and you, my friend, do not seem to respect me. I believe I have treated each one of your posts with respect, in return, I expect to be treated with equivalent respect, even if you disagree with me.
Also, it is great to remember we are all sharing what remains our personal interpretation: none of us detains the absolute truth.
@83: I personally find the bold letters, as used by Scath, to be offensive and aggressive. It gives me the impression I am being shouted at, but if it is Tor.com policy to find them acceptable, I will bow down and no longer make any comment on them.
@85: Yes. Thank you. This is exactly what I was trying to say. I do believe many interpretations are valid and plausible given the textual we have read. I believe it may have been intentional on Brandon’s part. He may have wanted us to decide, on our own, if Dalinar loved Evi or not. This goes in line with sheilagh’s earlier post where she stated some readers perhaps need to believe or need to have the narrative be open enough to believe Dalinar did love Evi.
I personally, for all the reasons I mentioned, believe Dalinar loved Evi though I do not believe he wished her harm, but I understand other readers made different conclusions even if I do not share them.
@85 Wetlandernw
I think that is what Gepeto is saying. I agree that there is evidence pointing both ways, and that the definition of “love” is itself inherently complicated.
My personal belief is that love is very complicated, and that it involves both what we feel and what we choose. We see Dalinar feel love for Evi when she is proud of him for sparing the heir, and we see him show love for Evi when he decides to give the heir a chance to resolve things peacefully.
We also see Dalinar resenting Evi for wanting him to change and feeling angry when she criticizes his behavior. We see him choosing a life as a warlord and ignoring her when he decides to burn Rathalas. People feel and do a lot of things during their lives, and all of those feelings and actions shape who they are. It’s probably better not to reduce the question to “loved” or “didn’t love”.
I think it’s better to say that Dalinar sometimes felt love for Evi, but that he struggled to show that love in healthy ways. He also sometimes did not feel love for Evi, and he had trouble controlling his anger and frustration. When he did manage to feel love and show it, he was usually both a happier and a better person. Unfortunately, he was not able to overcome his problem with anger, and his desire for revenge led to the death of his wife.
Wetlandernw @83. IIRC, in the past you have said (or at the least, implied) that you are a pseudo stickler for grammatical rules. (Apologies if you never said/implied this) Further, I am not an expert in grammatical rules. Nevertheless, I think the use of the ellipsis in @83 (at the very end) is incorrect. You ended your thought. Should you not have used a period? An ellipsis might have worked if you wanted to express hesitation. Your sentence, however (at least IMO) expressed no hesitation. (“Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion, emphasis and all”)
If I am wrong, oh well. I do not pray at the alter of Strunk & White. It would not be the first time I put my foot in my mouth; and will not be the last.
(FWIIW, I think my worst foot in mouth experience was when I was canvassing my neighborhood and knocking on doors. When somebody answered, I took one look at her and asked if her mother or father was present. She smiled and said she was pregnant with twins. (In my defense, she was not showing. I am not that oblivious.)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Andrew @88 – LOL! I’m usually careful with punctuation and grammar, though I sometimes abuse them deliberately for stylistic purposes. In this case, you are correct – I should have either used one or four dots: one if I wanted a full stop, four if I wanted to indicate trailing off at the end of a complete sentence. My intention was the latter, so it should have read,
Speaking of “emphasis,” my earlier point on that subject isn’t really a Tor thing, other than that we are given the ability here to use the various formats. It’s more a matter of, “These are common ways to create emphasis when you must communication with only the written word and a few formatting tools.” Since the text editor here allows all of them (and then some), there can be no stricture on using them. Individual preferences will vary as much as our writing styles. We could even be using colored text – but the others are easier due to shortcut keys.
The discussion about Dalinar & Evi is bound to continue to some extent, waxing and waning with the returning memories and the flashbacks. I personally have concluded that simply asking, “Did he love her?” presents us with a false binary. As dptullos pointed out @87, both his feelings and his actions vacillate between positive and negative. At times he feels that she’s far too good for him, and other times he’s frustrated by her “unreasonable” expectations of him. Sometimes he’s torn between affection for her and his addiction to the Thrill. Etc., etc. We’ll continue to discuss it as events unfold, but I think we can all agree that Young!Dalinar is inconsistent in his behavior toward Evi, and is far from being a good husband.
A strategy I use here, because there are some commentators who tend to write things that don’t fit the experience I’m looking to have here, is that there are certain usernames I just scroll right past. Scrolling past means I don’t have to feel annoyed by what I read and I don’t feel any need to respond and annoy the person I skipped or the people on the sidelines. Everybody wins.
(My standard for who to skip has nothing to do with which theories or characters someone supports. It is strictly based on how they write their arguments.)
Edited to add: I have no interest in giving any indication as to who I’m scrolling past, because I still appreciate that that are here and engaging with the work in their own ways even when they don’t line up with mine.
I didn’t want to hammer on it even more and be boring, but while Birgit @79 is right to an extent, people should already be starting to worry. Because Dalinar was trying to warn everybody who’d listen about the Everstorm and the transformation of parshmen into Voidbringers that he thought that it would bring. This would have certainly included other Alethi highprinces and nobles, their scribes and ardents, etc. and led to rumors flying. Now, not everybody would have taken Dalinar at his word, but after him being right about so many things recently, would many/most completely dismiss him?
As to the commoners, they would have either seen Voidbringers come back and conjure a huge, destructive storm if they marched with the 4 armies, or would have spoken to somebody who did. It would have been natural for them to wonder what it may presage for people back home. Now, this worry could have been sublimal, but Shallan visiting the winesinks, etc., should have caught a hint of it, IMHO. Or Adolin.
After all – what Dalinar expected to happen at that point was enough to make Kaladin quite frantic about the safety of his parents.
Later, when they learned about the devastation of the Everstorm, parshmen transforming and marching off towards Alethkar, communication being inexplicably and completely cut off, not just with Kholinar, but also with some regional capitals, such as Vamah’s Revolar, people should have been becoming very frightened for whatever they held dear back in the homeland indeed.
And as Gepeto rightly points out, while the camps did function as a capital of Alethkar and while some people did bring their spouses and children to the Shattered Plains, most still would have had families back home. After all, Dalinar was the only one who payed half of the price of relocation for his soldiers’ families and the trek there was still both long and dangerous because of bandits.
Not to mention that SA series is, very realistically, full of sibling love, love of children for their parents among the PoV characters, etc. – and now we are suddenly supposed to believe that the non-PoVs don’t care about that at all? Because even those who were fortunate enough to be able to bring spouses and children along, wouldn’t have brought parents and siblings. After all, most didn’t expect to stay there forever.
As to the Highprinces/nobles, it would be a pretty bad idea for them to leave their lands in the hands of people other than their heirs. That would risk that whoever runs their properties either tries to usurp their family eventually or mis-manages things by stealing as much they can for as long as they can. Usurpation of princedoms and lordships against the king’s will may have become less of a risk in a united Alethkar, but with Elhokar being a weak king, him being able to prevent power-grabs wasn’t a sure thing either. That’s what most of those meaningless battles that Amaram’s army was fighting while Kaladin served in it were about.
Wetlandernw @70:
I’d think that news of the riots and subsequent lack of communication from Kholinar were reasons enough to worry – but I agree that Dalinar had to think about the whole world. Elhokar definitely should have been worrying more and earlier, IMHO, as should have Navani and possibly Adolin.
RE: Situation in Alethkar and the nonchalance, even cavalier attitude of the Alethi in the Shattered Plains
Actually, the reason for the nonchalant attitude of the non-POVs like the soldiers and their families, that is, the common people at the Shattered Plains is because they probably don’t know. They might hear rumors but those are just rumors to them. And it will be too expensive for them to check if the rumors are true.
If we compare Roshar to Earth’s historical timeline, Roshar is in the Middle Ages but the telegraph had been invented. (Equate the telegraph with span reed)
Trivia: Many here probably have not even heard of the telegraph. It was invented in 1837. The last telegram was sent on July 14, 2013. This technology is no longer in use and just live in history books.
Back to OB. Many of the people at the Shattered Plains cannot afford their own span reed. And though they might have access to a span reed, it will be too expensive to send a message. And even if they have the money, where would they send it? It is so expensive that in villages like Hearthstone (Kaladin’s home), only the City Lord has one.
As for the Kholins not overly worried about Kholinar – well, it is their stronghold. They have soldiers there. It is well protected. And the Queen is there. There is a reigning monarch. For whatever its worth, they trust the people they left in charge in Kholinar.
And even if they are worried, it takes weeks or even months to send someone. The Kholins were being pulled in so many places, they cannot even begin to send someone home to Kholinar to check. IIRC, when Shallan arrived at the Shattered Plains, the countdown for the Everstorm was around 60 days give or take a few.
The scene at Kholinar in WoR was an Interlude, I believe.
What I’m trying to say is that we as readers know what is going on. But we are judging the characters in the book based on our knowledge, not theirs.
We keep on saying that Dalinar, Navani, Adolin and/or Elhokar should be worried, should have sent someone early on. But, they don’t know what is going on. They might be at the front row and know more than the others but they are still “in world”. They don’t know what we know.
As for Kaladin being worried about his home. Goodness gracious, he has seen what was happening worldwide through his dreams and/or visions courtesy of the Storm Father. And because he is a Windrunner, Kaladin can actually “fly” to Alethkar in a manner of speaking.
And Kaladin is also the character that seamlessly brings the story to Alethkar.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that we should not judge the characters in the book based on 21st century technology of having cell phones and the internet. Or even being able to fly to different parts of the globes in a matter of hours.
Just my thoughts.
@86 Gepeto
Both Unfettered 2 and WoK Prime were drafts and not final products. Oathbringer and Way of Kings are final products so I feel it is those that should be used to comment on the content of Oathbringer and Way of Kings.
@91 Isilel
I understand, and yes Kaladin was worried about his family. He believed Dalinar. Personally from the quotes I mentioned at the end of Way of Kings, and the beginning of Oathbringer show in my opinion that the other Highprinces don’t believe Dalinar. He only had two other Highprinces with him on the Shattered Plains, one of which died defending him, the other is publically derided as a coward and embraces such treatment. The Everstorm had not reached the warcamps yet. Sadeas already stated that he feels confident he could convince the other Highprinces that the stormform Voidbringers were all an elaborate hoax to get the Highprinces to obey Dalinar. Not all the highprinces have even answered the call to come to Urithiru yet. So in my opinion, a very good chunk of Highprinces as well as other nations have as quoted and continue to completely dismiss him.
So the reason why I am going to respond to this point is due to how highstorms and everstorms travel. Highstorms travel from east to west, so the only storm the warcamps have experienced at this point is another highstorm. Earlier than it should be which is odd but still a Highstorm like every other highstorm they experience. It is also commented throughout Way of Kings and Words of Radiance the power of the highstorms to clear away all debris. It is why Kaladin’s bridge crew are sent down right next to the warcamps to go through corpses. Those are corpses that were pushed by the highstorm on the plains and flood waters through the cracks miles upon miles till they reached the warcamps again.
So what I feel the response to this would be well why would the warcamps not find the corpses of the voidbringers? I believe the response would be two fold. First, still needs time to get that far. I feel the highstorm was strong enough to push the corpses off both sides off the plains and into the cracks for a decent amount of miles but the Warcamps are still a week of travel at least (it was longer initially because they were mapping the chasms. It became at least a week once they knew the path to take). So in my opinion the corpses wouldn’t have reached the warcamps yet. Secondly, Sadeas had chasm duty be a duty reserved for bridge crews alone. Sadeas is the main character we see employing bridge crews and in that manner. I do not recall any other Highprince using bridge crews in the same manner as Sadeas. So I do not believe the other Highprince’s have chasm duty. But that can be open to interpretation.
So now why I have linked this to the commoners. Any commoners traveling out to the center of the shattered plains wouldn’t have any stormform corpses to find as they were blown off into the chasms by the storm. Any commoners remaining in the warcamps wouldn’t have any stormform corpses to find as they have not been pushed that far yet. Regarding Shallan, she visited seedy bars, got drunk, and talked about murders in Urithiru. She didn’t ask how was everyone was doing. The people she spoke to at length (the spy, horneater, and etc), are not the type to worry about loved ones. We did see the spy worry. She worried that she is out of her depth in a world changing around her, and she wants to be with the ones in power so she can be in control of her life.
Now when you say later, are we talking when the expedition is sent to Kholinar? Or before? To be clear, me responding to your posts are not to say you are wrong and I am right. It is not to say you are not allowed to think how you do. You are stating you felt there should be more reactions and you gave reasons why. I am merely responding that I feel the reactions we got were merited and giving my reasons why. We do not have the POV of Revolar. He could be very well be doing exactly that. Scrambling his resources (after the everstorm hit and communication is cut off) to try and re-establish a connection. We see it come up I believe three times between Navani and Dalinar about trying to learn where communication is lost and why. So I feel the concerns do come up, but they come up in a military group gathering information to act on. Dalinar is also not the only Highprince that let families come to the shattered plains. He mused that he should have done it sooner, but not that he is the only one. Sebarial is a prime example. he has gone even further by trying to build an infrastructure not dependent on soulcasters. The other highprince (i forgot his name), attempted to expand his warcamp into other abandoned camps after Dalinar, Sebarial, and Sadeas moved in to Urithiru. Sebarial stated how he is going to have to divide his forces just to ensure his land in the warcamps aren’t taken away.
Non-POV’s are entitled to care for whatever their character cares about, but without a PoV from them, it is difficult to show upset. The POV’s we do have however are people in power having to govern a newly found magical city, handle the transfer of their seat of power from the warcamps to this newly found magical city, and deal with a world ending threat. So I feel what they focused on and what they reacted to are in line with the narrative. Soldiers didn’t expect to stay in the warcamps forever as per Gaz’s own discussion with Shallan. Some got resentful, and some then deserted.
The span reeds providing instantaneous communication to govern your lands from anywhere would handle that. That is also why the span reeds getting shut down prevented any intelligence from being gleened, and any troops from back home being coordinated to accomplish anything. It was shown in the book the frustration and the worry about one by one span reed stations going silent. Navani was the vehicle used for this.
@92 sheiglagh
I agree on all points. Thank you.
Sorry for the very late response, but I only started the book when the first reread came out, and I’ve been trying to catch up since.
Also, I love the retreads! Even if I don’t comment I enjoy them very much and many confusing things are put in (sometimes new) perspective:)
Re: everyone thinks that dalinar loved Evi.
First of all, I think it’s true to a point. Perhaps he wasn’t IN LOVE with her but I do think he learned to love her in his own way by the end.
As for the others, from their perspective, even if they didn’t think (or observed) that dalinar really loved her, they did see him breaking apart after her death. Since no one knew about his reaction to the massacre in the rift (or even thought it’s a valid reason for any kind of a moral debate) they all probably thought “wow, look at dalinar.. He’s so broken by his wife’s death.. He must have loved her after all” .
Was there no epigraph for this chapter?
Lot of comments, didn’t read them all, sorry. But it occurred to me that the Voidbringer Lashers had those long swaying cloaks that extended past their feet while hovering? Sounds kinda like “ribbons on their ankles” to me. Another old saying that survived, perhaps.
I read it as deliberately referencing the Mistcloaks of Scadrial, myself.
@97 – My thinking was only that Voidbringers would definitely engender a feeling of hieing to Braize. Mistborn wouldn’t necessarily receive such condemnation.